Public Broadcast Laboratory; 107

it's been public television broadcasters alive nationwide interconnection is it a sunday evening december seventeen and this is really about the public broadcasting laboratory and experiment in public television combining elements of information education and entertainment tonight from the blm new york and from cities across the united states have totally alive and rigorous examination of police minority relations tonight from philadelphia and public television station whyy police sergeant john harrington national president of the fraternal order of police and several fellow officers from other cities are several united church of christ in detroit in the heart of the riot area of black nationalist congregation meeting with ed pastor the reverend albert played a catalogue of complaints about the

police oh public television station wnet in newark new jersey another riot city councilman wants the police do have dogs and two citizens who want a federal court to take over the police you are bullies director dominic spinner refused to take part in this program at omaha police department store front center in the st louis ghetto or white citizen who helped to get the police and negroes to talk to each other and the critic wants more oh from public television station k rna in denver professor harold mendelssohn was just completed a study of how police and minority groups regard each other police have what is an atlanta chief herbert jenkins a member of the president's commission on civil disorders and the reverend samuel williams lectures to the police and race relations and from radio in

new york joseph moment dean of the university of california school of criminology and former sheriff of cook county illinois hussein assistant professor of psychiatry at the tufts university school of medicine and professor albert rees chairman of the department of sociology at the university of michigan would be the l chief correspondent edward the market good evening gilbert and sullivan didn't know the half of it when they mourn the policeman's lot in seoul never in our history as a policeman's lot been more unhappy society cannot live without the blue coat on the beat but ironically police have never been popular for example in a book called gangs of new york herbert asbury wrote about a policeman nicknamed club or williams he rose to the powerful rank of inspector in the eighteen eighties by the simple technique of ordering all suspected criminals club on site it was necessarily the cops hated the underprivileged they largely came from poor families

themselves and today likely working stiff they have banded together and powerful unions of their own but the police department on the whole way does what the power brokers of the establishment want done this works out as protection and justice for the well heeled an influential while the citizen down at the heel is likely to get his justice at the end of a nightstick today however the nation is blood shot with the violence of protest riots as negroes strikeout to claim their constitutional rights and to renounce their the meaning status of second class citizenship all against the rising backlash of white fear it is important to note that not a single riot heating up by recent summers has been a real race riot between black and white civilians these upheavals have rarely get spilled beyond the ghettos rarely involve anybody except the negroes and the police or other forces

of law order evidence indicates that most negroes hate cops to them than to the police represent and symbolize the oppressive power of white major studies of riding shoulder because of this tension the risk of very violent a minor incident and snap in a major violence spreading it like fly fly concerned with flaming destruction in crime in the streets quite slim and read the law abiding negroes needed more but complain they're getting it lasts ironically too many white star just beginning to realize that most victims of crime or negros themselves police brutality has affect the bidding of authorities biracial mixed also

a responsible well intentioned policeman is in the middle of this whirlwind overworked overpaid underpaid i should have said us often maligned sometimes maimed or killed the american cop has become by society's demand a combination night watchman obstetrician traffic expedite or litter prevent her dog watcher and official vigilante against fraud something is radically crucially role tonight hbo will try to examine the crisis and search out at least some remedies why are the police and minority groups not just negroes but puerto ricans mexican americans and others add virtual war with each other what is being done to cool this war what more can be done how a society itself going to be drawn constructively into this problem instead of criticizing the police and condemning the riders from the sidelines want

harsh key factors that most of us simply do not know what's going off let's start our examination with a look at added to its in hartford connecticut last summer police arrested negro and white demonstrators after an open housing march that wound up at a police station in a public forum afterwards police were criticized for their treatment of the marchers a white school teacher went to the station house after the arrest told this story i chance to see an old friend of mine walls a rather high position in the police department and he taught me over very confidentially inside what are you doing here i said what my organization represents an interest in civil liberties and civil rights and in the most confidential tones he told me don't you know that black people just came out of nobody's been it seems to me that as i teach

my students to respect lawn or i also teach them that the force of law should be applied with equal baker on everyone another distinguished member of the police department a cheap i might say he came by and said to my plan what's the sense of talking to him he doesn't understand officer john harrington in philadelphia is that the key word there is the civilian not understand at tell us as president of the national fraternal order of police what is wrong and is it true that the white member of society doesn't understand what you mean the police are trying to do no idea that they're most of the way to the people in society or just don't wanna become involved but i think that there's just a small group of leaders and i mean people who have too much time on their hands

and the death toll on these people let the other enemy is the policeman what kind of leaders in the atmosphere until i would say civil rights leaders are opposition leaders like capt brown and call michael lynn martin luther king in the liver such that they are going around in sight nice people who wear think that the police on their enemies know have to bare this point out the many many demonstrations they have carried signs saying that the police are your enemies in many many cases they have advocated that police should be annihilated and kill no i don't think that is the majority of any race of people that against more maude i think that it's just the rabble rouser as thats walk in the streets i think they're getting away with this because the politicians one of the democrats and republicans were they should be america's first reverend played in detroit are you a rabble rouser are you a

rabble rouser first than a politician seconds or a pastor second i'm a black panthers and i don't need a rabble rouser detail me about policemen and what they do and about the brutality please without is the reality of why people oppose because every black person knows that innovative idea wrap around naked stand when he says that white people are engaged in the program of genocide that we should address dealt with the kind of thing that come would you spell out that little bit more irreverent plate when you say genocide what does that mean in terms of domestic troubles in the united states genocide is quite simply the same thing in united states in the dividend it means that white people in the united states are like people are willing to accept that i decided that in right now

i'm the head of the white people say without even now at the state that's right the white community in the right way it is in philadelphia camden new jersey chief harold melvin i want ask you chief they are you on your force engaged in genocide or are you engaged and police brutality what is your answer to the pastor from detroit on your pardon called a vacant chair let me have somebody volunteered answer that question in philadelphia

are dismissive of iceland what do you say to that mr joseph stanek who are believers in the philadelphia station he is the president of the bridge that spurred fraternal order of police and obviously an expert on police situations in pittsburgh my brother another vacant chair you know sherman air and the almond eyes that this gentleman like such as the statement whether he calls himself a member only clergy fires manny changed too and create the fact that it's a five man first heard this type of remarks coming from a member of the clergy and i like to have these people remember that most police departments in the nation that they are not strictly medical white policeman bad with majority of our police department like that word cost of a

percentage what percentage i was saying that for a belief that at least twenty percent of our police department color and every night table and we don't we don't look at our brother arthur because he has a white faces and they grow wheat or even as a man and we'll know we live in this racial situation that violence at any time is ready then outlined an eye on many cases were lot of our car policeman fatally of a white policeman when they were falsely of bipolar people we're going to lower we're going to get back to in a moment but we're going to chief robert jenkins of the atlanta police force who happens to be also a member of the president's commission on urban disturbance that you get and it's nice to see you again what you got to say i'm part of the problems of this week while on a no lettuce

while and that report of a rock the rover sitting nearby maplewood so pretty and we asked him a couple years ago if you come in and tell lies why why a minister and the chairman of philosophy at morehouse college what is your reaction to your fellow pastor in detroit to play five and five is that right i think i don't believe that you can be any the police department of the navy

but in many places and we in this programme want to examine the underlying this was like a general blanket statement that they are engaged in on a program of genocide happily program teenage dream but her more about that would later on i do want to go back to something that the president of the night of the tunnel a police said a moment ago he around the country is the right call and they play the approach of the problem and it does not recognize a right i know there'll

probably be sure but we know that we don't view of problems by writing activation body out we must tell you the minds and try to find out what are the underlying condition was definitely wrong well started here and it before going back to detroit and philadelphia alanna reach out of the rocky mountains in denver to dr gerald mendelson who is the director of research in the department of mass communications at the university of denver was just done a study of minority groups in denver and of police and he's going to discuss with us the social isolation of the police but before you do that or professor mendelsohn what is your response to the dialogue so far online activists those girls i was able to police i don't know and those attitudes to replace obamacare is

the ambivalence of bell employers sixty eight percent of the negroes in the service of the police treat minorities fairly intimate feminine or sixty two percent of those thousand is apple said those elite in soho certain and because i'm not really mexican americans and only a minority of people will definitely show antagonism on cruz to the place of the loneliness isn't it for example twenty three percent and that was an example and twenty seven percent of those panels and the sample felt that the place was on runway or antagonistic a lovely about it all in each group felt that cooperating with the place would lead

to trouble for the mountain the major proportion of our group includes feel that the police are doing an adequate job and actually what we face is a seller of inconsistent attitudes like this cause we were going to do that well professor mendelsohn underwear been interrupting her to go back to philadelphia asked mr harrington a third that he and some of these other people we haven't even introduced water makes an avid comic yes i want to say this is the facts prove that the negro is not against the police the killers or whether that's areas thinking of salinger thomson camden new jersey and the majority of the people in camden new jersey are color and they are just three to one vote and a policeman for thirteen hundred dollar pay rates are we in pennsylvania and just as the people of pennsylvania to vote on a change in the state constitution

in favor of police and the right on the train mr rankin may i ask you are mr taylor this given a majority of negro citizens of camden on their majority of negroes on the police force in camden mr taylor demanded i got in it i believe is about twenty percent we have approximately fifty nine were policemen out of approximately two hundred and fifty officers and can i would like to say you know this is that when the police brutality i've been a policeman for twenty seven years and it's only in these recent years that this expression came about none of the fbi has investigated at least eighteen hundred of these charges of police brutality for here and their investigation shows that there's only been five or six the minority to take action upon another five or six that they have taken action upon the courts have only found the policemen killed in one or

two cases now this is the fbi this is not an ordinary municipal police department and it i'm surprised there near amana the quote say that he is a black man first i begin this country of laws was supposedly americans for years morning renee and we're going to do it right here at the moment in new york starting up would be infidels of mormon of the school of the criminology at university of california berkeley and i must say at the moment that i am surprised by mr harrington zone statistics in terms of police brutality or will you give us a more substance on our thing well before i do that i think that comment is an order with reference to the relationship of the negro to the police in the broader context of his deprived status in the society a good deal of what we're for and pointing here and what seemed to be talked about is really the sense in

which the police become the central focus of the problems which are attendant on the relationship of a deprived negro population and the wider society and i would be among the first to suggest that the police and even these days are better than they have been in the past and i think it would be incorrect to suggest that the whole problem of the relationship of the negro to the society of people on the road the police on the other hand the sense in which the police become a focus of the deprivation and indeed have responsibilities with weapons to the attitudes that are developed on the part of the population that for the police to the wider society becomes a matter of major concern that was not inclined to believe that the police need to see these attitudes of the needle as a very real problem whether they are expressed by and they do not and have norway and explain to us the circumstance and condition under which they're entering into situations during the summers of the past two years and in many instances in an attempt to bring a situation under control though roble even greater violence and that's what they were attempting to address

the long run mr rankin sure no because it indicated that if you were right my research was totally wrong when he said that police brutality is a new thing and i ordered from a book by herbert asbury indicating that police brutality wasn't an ordinary except one thing his long ago and eighty ad in the united states you're right here in new york or can you add a little of that yes i think if there is a taking the problem likely to suggest that it will plead poverty on the other hand it's also important to suggest that the term has become the way in which the whole relationship of the negro population in terms of that second class status in its exposure to what it regards as a double standard of police performance constitutes it's the infamous situation which sees it seems so what an airport police brutality as the name for a lot of things which indicated its displeasure with a circumstance in which it finds a keynote speaking of a new low standard here i think it might be interstate mr harrington and others on the remote if we're on for just a second here

and i bet some testimony that we have that we have had put on film from for negro citizens who happened to be a policeman we've heard from you know citizens about rough treatment they say they received from white policeman now let's take a look at this piece of film in which for negro policeman talk about the problem from their own very unique point of view the be all assembled these negro policeman who work in a major northern city and filmed their recollections as integral police officer was involved in a situation where there was a wide and been involved in it and for that people's was good all public transportation on their way home you have police officers at this point should not the route and it was like coming home from work

or she'll in themself have no point of a riot and that was be an attack with nightsticks war because they would like the peace on occasion to ban the station house when a plainclothes team won negro and one white protective i wrestle a white girl across ago and while in the state house what they appear at the desk officer me it's a really sad that the way in the back assuming that the detective the detective was the prisoner and the white prostitute was the policewoman i know personally i've been stopped at least five to six times when i've been driving on that street keeping up with traffic sometimes considerable number one because maintaining the same speed i maintain and no please call us them pull up alongside take a look inside the car see my collar and pull me over to the side naturally i

don't get a ticket because i identify myself as a police officer but i could see that i could understand the frustrations that many people must feel when they're in a similar situation and receive a ticket because they don't have to be a police officer was strictly on the basis of color related viruses like this really about the voice they don't trust the police because they feel it well who was it frankly that the average citizen in the ghetto is that there's a double standard of justice that law applies to them doesn't apply to someone that doesn't have a particular skin color to live in a particular area and they they do definitely distrust of police and i have a degree of hostility towards them i backed reports that you're not only empty but a

professor of psychiatry at tufts and you had experienced north and south just quickly would you assess this testimony that we've had about police brutality we will get back to you on more fulsome i think that is definitely much more brutality particularly that the police will admit to i think it frequently most of the police brutality cases have been white washed is no procedure for adequate complaints the police have a vested interest in gun to protect themselves i myself a mississippi used to treat our youngsters beaten by the police every day and then how the police to come out and say it was no police brutality in mississippi the other important thing i think you have to remember is that when the maker community talks about police brutality the talk about a wide range of things particularly the psychological brutality that goes on the way a policeman treat black people of the way they treat him as a subhuman and song and i think this is a very crucial an understanding the problem i would like that less than ten in philadelphia

are how he feels almost the white officers feel about people from his experience from my experience that i treat a person as a person three mayfair i don't judge a man by his religion nobody is for the skin but the i would like to say this about the a mixture that was just shown before how officers make any statement it amazes me because if these conditions are existent and i always do bob then they are responsible for a big boys if i was one and then i would bring this matter to the chief of police or to the mayor of the community that these things exist they exist because people like that don't have the guts that they want as the rebound say this thing also that idea so much of his police brutality i'd like to he or anyone you know throughout the country telling me how many people have been killed as a result of his brutality and how many people have been left

for all from this brutality and i'll tell you in a policeman had been killed by the civilians and i'll tell you on any policemen had been dribbled in the city of philadelphia from the civilian your question as a reporter or you are not now a working police when you had a distinguished record as a policeman that you are having in the best sense of the term of the union called the national fraternal order of police the nato members of his union have regrets within that union for complaints such as we've just seen on film and if not why not i'm going to do is be the question about the fraternal order of police i am also president of the largest lobby of the police which is the philadelphia lives and we have ten thousand members and one of those rights president of our organization is a colorful howard williams rightly say roughly eighteen hundred and it's very peculiar

that the president of the naacp in the city of philadelphia says a lot said that the police brutality in the city of philadelphia is given by the policeman and he's a liar man who as a boy before we wrote that i'd like to say something in their faith that various baker's bring up the fact that policeman are constantly attacking and members of the minority rights it aired not one mention the fact that any time a policeman comes in contact with a member of the minority rights they are usually pull their why another member of the minority rights when i led war against them at work at twenty thousand eight hundred so michael place in the last few years in the city of philadelphia there's been close to sixteen million

contacts with the general public and in all of the hard facts or ninety percent of the compact the police weren't whole responding to the school they find out what the problem was at a night times out of ten there was a cause for police action and we had the plague therefore anyone icons in conflict with the law your jewelry objects the policeman violating their rights or depriving them of their right and therefore you had these police animosity reverend craig and detroit would do and hopefully one of your parishioners their answer me this question a lot of the things that i have come upon know repeatedly as a reporter is the obligation on the part of the residents of the devil that they don't have any police protection now we're no where policemen serve our left we have just said are you just indicated that they have entered a great many calls

in the ghetto or what about that an enemy the edge of the problem that they are in trouble black people in the lego set up anonymously realize that black that policeman on are going to enforce the law that they're not the problem with any sense of justice and that black people are recognizing the situation in egypt i would like to call on attorney henry as they were about the legality and the reaction of the black community to talk about the journey than anyone else and civil rights lawyers in the country and a firm that invented by people in

cages those having to get some kind of reprisal please like people would appreciate having black hawk like until now we've been injured we hope that happened that your film will be instances of police shooting and then killing twelve without a minute we do that we can hardly at the argument our situation and we get this completely and eighty engines of the people being in that car and in michigan we have a constitutional provision which amounts to the law right ok we were like we don't believe

you i live in the community how is your alma mater you left an attorney college you control your areas if be a white policeman stayed out oui oui i'm desperate commission has not won they imposed upon white police commission oh we think we should have immediate control and he argued that with the words and that would be available to the committee and when we now have because we believe that if foreign invader in our communities you'll find out of individual who do it at all or protection from the police department and the reaction that he got probably as print on with the executive director of the citywide citizens action committee operate in the black community

and it really is but of all the other drug rebellion for college in detroit cleveland broke into my store clerk all the plate glass windows and smashed the pictures are returned books and set the place on fire i call a police department and i talked to a saddam at that precinct here and i told him the situation he told me that part he heard that there was some trouble at the stony brook and historic early in the morning he figured that there was some trouble at school there was no one at the skill whatsoever why everyone's off the streets they broke and they tore up everything that they possibly could get their hands on and they were really seen that at least twenty five people and a policeman told me that he didn't want to talk to me and he hung up city councilman know frank got in the deal in newark i understand that you have a very close working relationship with the

police that you often accompany them in their patrol cars into the delaware is an experience and something that they experience or you know some of your reactions to the style well yes certainly first lot like to correct the only a statement was made that directors they refused to appear tonight the director was talking to me only yesterday indicated he would have been happy to appear unfortunately on a commitment of long standing i would like the university made a direct the screen that doesn't give them and so on and he very publicly never as far as the police are concerned they got all accounts and bernstein and i have police radios in our car and we write in on many many calls and i can assure you that the number of crimes and the sauce on police and the city and there are tremendous many many hundreds of them every year as far and this is a proven facts and sweet we are short approximately two hundred men in the police department and heaven only knows why a young man would

want to be a police officer today with the saris and the animosities of the people and it's a proven fact that many naval fleets officers will manhandled negroes to a greater extent than white police officers and i've seen as many many times in the central ward where a police officer or a white police officer actually gets before in the world or use force and when you talk about police brutality in using an undue force how much force is on to force and it's never easy to issue them and to show them its fire no it seems to me that the time has come when people months come to the realization at the wall forced went on and not shy of the call the call to police radio every day in north are crimes committed by a vote against other negroes but i represent a large need no constituency and many mutual friends of

mine have indicated house and we need more police protection last week i attended a meeting at the royal wedding the street school where i indicated that the crotch of the larger and many of the audience that council were afraid to walk the streets at night or come up a pta meeting and this is saying that they were sending rockets that were afraid to walk the streets of our city this is one of the reasons why is if i'm under see if i understand it correctly and and correct me if i'm wrong with an uneasy all know that you were very firm advocate of having a dog for the new york police force water actually the recommendation for the police dog was made by the police department have definitely so as a police technique known for anything that will give additional weapons to the police department and a better technique so that they can enforce the law there's a different

way well i we have an officer ten hour from the camden police department and only a week and a half ago i want the candidate was see the dogs in action and i'd certainly like to hear from officer taylor exactly what before we do that i hear a new yorker whitney is an expert professor rais the head of the department of sociology sociology at the university of michigan who but a great deal of work on the research for the president's crime commission report and has given testimony to the kerner commission on urban disorder is and i wonder dr each of you just pull a few threads together before we go back to atlanta yes i think it's important to point out that it and one side we hear the statements that made thicker by the officer in the work that they had twenty thousand complaints yesterday now if one just assume that there were twenty of those twenty thousand complaints that were handled badly and years time it would be seventy two

hundred complaints or we assume that they were separate citizens of the seventy two hundred citizens i would have a complaint now what we found in our study for the crime commission are observational studies that actually twenty nine percent and the contact between a police officer and an innocence in our panel at least an uncivil fashion you can see that at twenty nine percent of twenty thousand citizens in newark yesterday for work ever said were talking about what are the large number of cities one item in a quibble but what you mean by an uncivil fashion line on civil fashion of course could range all the way from the spirit has say too aggressive behavior belittling behavior through open hostility and aggression which an extreme case cases takes the form abundant use of force only on the part of the police now we must remember that in a certain abortion these cases the citizens also really aggressively but i assume that that's what we want our police to do is to

handle those cases so that they are in control of their own emotions even though the citizens not in control of his well we have in st louis tonight a group emanating not from our affiliates don't heal from an actual garrels storefront in which the police officers and the man on duty there is petroleum joseph club and i believe i'm looking at a typical when thomas right now i mean i am corrected and told that there's a city alderman joys of clock eight mr clark our these ghetto stations and the police working in st louis and beach would you contribute your part of the dialogue that's gone on so far are you are you good i'll go through

it integration is it's an integrated lethal all over iowa where we have no problems where we have an integrated car i think of this not really this is it two ways as long as in

hawaii and they will buy a technique of a shooting in the prospect of the problems that really more immigration not only worsened an outlet what's been your experience is a little it's in and knew the extent of integration of police forces that you have now what's been the experience of negro of policemen on patrol in white neighborhoods and one probably have very little going on really an all white you know we may have a new name oh yeah we're going to get to you a little bit later about the

avenue and the officer thomas of these they're explained the ghetto police officers but the jenkins in the atlanta as i understand it you have integrated the police force in atlanta pelissier experience and whether negro patrol in a companywide patrol in white districts that sort of thing a big letters are quite buy this program is being put owners recognition that the risk pleased new problem and we recognize that we have a problem here twenty years ago one recognizes the place really going to please call this morning they emit forty percent of the moment and always on the grill will continue to work in an alternate probably you know the worst part of a couple years ago or recommendation of no crime commission in atlanta where we had been altered

to be always some of the people that had problems and i think that this is not the point now please all the people and get home values in this crime rate wide and culture in these areas were developed a better communication and we don't have them before we still have a problem don't live in i asked thirty seconds he had a signed legal policeman it either accompanying white policeman or by themselves or white neighborhoods or and restricted them from the warriors whether they were middle class or gavel and a community problem

dr williams realty and i have been very limited in me it's you know it's not we really need to talk about some of the problems and caught on the line and it would be they now are you talking only in atlanta are these conditions in the nation of yemen and now i think we've got a big issue in the nation now one of the things that before i think that it is a political economist and two with a captain of the cheap on my left here i think they're on the defensive and the discussion about understanding it's not caught or policeman and he can be pinned anything written on them problem they are well i think they are philadelphia at the very

defensive and he says he is new this is not true it or even better than that is that the voter is not new unable to live in mississippi avenue then i felt i didn't want and i know that with the idea that perhaps some of the native now than others but that much of it in the event there someone if that involve more than physical brutality it involves a lot of credit to happen that the only problem with that it two years in one of the one thing that we talk about in the album and he did that kind of confrontation as they deal with it and i think one of the things we can make the world dr williams we're going to come back to you again and again

and again the roof or shorten your urine the surveys in now but i do want to ask you this and i wonder if you would answer it in one sentence what is the basic issue why now that it is a racist top liberal minority and the second part of the problem is we have an unhealthy political investigation reconstruct not thinking about people who want to grow and and other minority of animal with that pool because some of that we work on the problem of it the way thank you very much mr harrington in philadelphia a new datsun footnotes or cement notes that do this trying to give back to as

many different issue has been brought up number one the experts say is that there's twenty nine complaints of brutality out of the twenty nine percent said the tsa this to the experts that we in philadelphia had a police review board for eight years the first one in the country longer than any other city in the country and most of our police brutality charges against the policemen wire that they didn't smile when they talk to me or they raise their voice and this all adds to the twenty nine percent of the police at you that as the result would have been this boy in the city of philadelphia that there was very few very few less than one percent of the men who was taken before the police review boyd who were found guilty and the majority of the people on the review would work other people which ryan so there's twenty nine percent is not your fingers really been out there a long history in same as actually happened you are taken the results of people et les complains that we didn't smile at them when we talk to them now

i'm not surprised that there was a riot and the joy because in the church the night everybody that states is saying and referring to the police as their enemies and they also prefer that they want the college of police the colored and they want a holiday information is and so forth oh i thought you were striving for a quality i don't think he was driving or a preference i think that one of the things wrong and police work that they did i think that the police department should be made up of the men who get the highest marks anticompetitive examination regardless of what their religion or college restaurant and let me ask you a question in terms of a civilian review board lori police review board there's been a great deal of talk about this and political campaigns in big cities over that over recent years my question is this is it not correct that my concept the police in this country are

controlled by civilians are controlled by elected officials over them is that not right that is the case what is the necessity to have a review board unless the community feels that the police have become a sort of a law unto themselves so to speak elisa police review boards i have been before all the police review boards in this country that was activated philadelphia had the first one the city council of philadelphia voted down that they didn't want to it was put in by america was taken the vote of minority groups and today it has been declared a little by judge why not in the court of common pleas there was only one other police review board that was really active in that was in rochester new law and in rochester new york judge jacob bach of the supreme court of new york ruled that the board was a little phantom people whose sole review boards to the people throughout this country as a safety valve between the police and the people that we go to your attention that in nineteen sixty four

law when we had the riot and philadelphia was the whitest right in the country and sixty four and we have the oldest review board and the second worst riot nineteen sixty four was in rochester new york zion i asked this of all due respect that you didn't answer my question my question was whether or not the police departments in this country are in actual fact under the control of the elected civilian officials and if they are why is any review board made it there isn't a and what you say is true the police departments are under the control of the elected officials and it's elected officials about the guts to do the job why not why because it's under the city charter of philadelphia where we had the oldest one bad deal worth it was his responsibility to see that the police the bubble was run right and it was also the city manager's responsibility at that time these landrieu

very high salaries and they walked around rid of all of the flowers and so forth it was their job of the police when you go on a job right and then the people likely to run the city to correct the situation not enact dressmaker not a rag may not a fellow who worked in the post office not own a housewife day not that type of people you know you cannot judge honestly a subject unless you ought to know you and you are an expert in that subject i think about the quality of attention let's let politicians running for office be aware but at this moment i want to go to mr robert kerman a negro in nowhere we've been describing ms dickerman is a nearly militant members of the civil rights movement you're director i believe of the

community action training program at rutgers and former head of korea nor am i right that you had learned moved for action and which the federal government would take over a police believe in the city of newark and if i am right why do you want that well i'm at a complaint in a slew of that has asked the federal government to put the newark police reform in receivership the reason that i have become a complaint in the suit is because i am very strongly believe that the present administration the police department is incompetent in only two all by abide by the law a particularly relationship to treatment toward a black people in the city of newark the newark police in fact my mind have a very well known history of brutality against citizens in the city a fact it was close i didn't have another article a couple weeks ago that the federal investigators have found ways to renew

relations to be the most serious of the city oh that they studied in the country and at the present time we're face with the proposals such as the one being supportive on a certain easier to rent by police dogs into the city and this idea is being used by white people in the city of new york to organize vigilante groups i liked us mr ebenezer what he thinks that their work on a contribution will police dogs really make to the situation in the city of moore what's your answer to that and i'm not a professional policemen and i must rely on the integrity of the men making their request and when the police department after its research indicates that from breakin entries police dogs are our wonderful technique i must go along with that recommendation the same as i do when the superintendent of education request additional money for certain features in the board of education now as far as people aren't armed themselves i think mr carvin is definitely right they are on the other hand why they arming themselves they're arming

themselves because the way the militant nevada forced the white people in the city and worked and around the country to arm themselves and this is why we need adequate police so that the ropes on the other hand i believe that he believed that the way you know that it's proper and i say that there are enough radical need lows and the radical whites and a comedian matter what the situation is they're looking for a a bones of contention well we have to work with the metal group and this is where laura force that must come in forcible gentlemen one of europe's all the citizens of newark happens to be a tonight in philadelphia it is but coleman leonard gillespie who have my factor i testified before a senate committee that missed a curve and we just heard from i was a rabble rouser coleman gillespie works in a cell block in the city prison and no work or give me some of your own views on this thing we've been discussing the draw listen

as a man i would like the answer right now publicly a nationwide in nineteen sixty three and nineteen sixty five until the present day as him a minute ago use the lake and his wild faced with groundless accusations this man has yet the pull of one case of police will probably yet he stands on our corners of our city's streets these days and follow public buildings and he screams about the will margo is that so there's that all five policemen and as of this day he has not the naval the poll one case of legal fight how we heard the night sinning all citizens in or arming themselves and i can give you at this time a sign sworn affidavits that people are armed themselves quite tens of thousands and number one the fatal only comic con fact within the city are arming themselves let them right that they are properly fill out of every

ten people like that were locked up for carrying guns herman oh yes they're why they're carrying these guns out that you what were called at the police are allowed to carry guns so are we you're discriminating against me alone is discriminated against me why give a policeman is gone and not a member of the mine it who forgot you are basic element of this whole discussion is the tremendous lack of confidence that in the alienation that has developed in the black community today because precisely what mr kowaleski said i haven't proven one case of lake valley in the eyes of policemen or in the eyes of the court if citizens in fact knew that they could go to the court and get justice i don't think we

would have the nature of the problem that we have today but the fact of the matter is that there has been no justice as rob around in fact that said justice isn't joking or tripoli in the black community gentlemen we're going to have to take a break in just a moment but before we do with the three of you just sum up your impressions of where we've got so far have we got anywhere or and i really wanted to pose a question and i think in a sense might be the basis for some really as i listened this highly polarized a month of the issues on one hand allegations of brutality on the other hand defensive denials of exists at all and my mood as this question asked of collectively of the police people here know they really believe in the sense in which they presented this gently that the minority groups have not been affected by their experiences with authority and with them and that they really have spun this all out of whole cloth and i really feel that there is no substance in the

representations on the plot of the great numbers of minority groups who feel distressed and brian and did not realize there's nothing in of all i wonder if they really feel like i assume you're asking that question not only is a sociologist from the university of california both a former sheriff kulkarni a lot yes i am about to put some water were your thoughts quickly before we are we going to manipulate lie i think the whole discussion again indicates that there's a polarization i think a lot of most of a problem i think lies with the police i think in their unwillingness to recognize some of the legitimate issues and to deal with them and to get rid of some other rigidity and defensiveness and tried to to do some problem solving i think that the black community has been shouting for years and trying to do constructive things about a lot of these problems about police behavior and nothing happens had been white washed and so then it turns to violence the only way people can express themselves is through violence i think it's very significant that during the notoriety the first

place that the black people went to was to the present i know it because i wanted to got to get back at the police that when it was saying that they would have something to say about how police behave in their community and that they're not going to stand for it anymore and i think that the police if the police don't get this passage then they're going to be even less are at times to come doctor ezekiel elliott a contradiction of their colleagues or anything bad for what they've asked him why i think there's another issue here and we've brought out very nicely when her one and that is the issue of how you can prove in a sense the outer gate allegations and under what conditions are people willing to come forward and may these cases we know there are no witnesses president joseph officer and so this is a very difficult situation people fear recriminations and so i would like to hear the officers discuss the question of whether or not they really feel that such cases exist and whether

they think that the way they are handle is the proper way to hang a gentleman atlanta denver say lawyers nor the droid and elsewhere ponder these questions bpl will continue its examination of police community relations in just one moment after this pause for a station identification air maybe our resumes with edward p morgan in new

york young woman in new york and out on our live in a connects i think we have made some progress at least in revealing the depth of polarization between minority groups and the police why is their hostility know maybe they're maybe arguments about the degree the intensity of hostility let's forget brutality for a moment although the thing that's hard to forget on both sides what about those professor ruth society make do any demands on the policeman loses one call is why i wouldn't say that society makes too many demands on reason but society does obligate the policeman to preserve order and to a system a homeowner and i'm only assume the burden for law enforcement society now that is not an unreasonable

demand in any society we must remember however that the police of course mice police and unpopular circumstances they often was that are situations in which people are not prepared to accept police intervention they don't invite lee said we also must remember the famous police unpopular situations whether it is a student disorder at the university or whether it is a disorder then rises over public issues so it is a difficult job and i am sympathetic with the police officers wrote when i certainly would not characterize it as an unreasonable demand our human to break down this polarization that be a moment of it exists and it's a key if we can't communicate empathetic way were lost what a symphony that one of the problems says the narrow conception of the confrontation with the police make of the maintaining of the piece of the order of the community a lot of place that prevented very much the idea that they're called upon to do things

other than can't call saul of people that there are in some sense or another and the fact a matter of they do a lot of other things but the system doesn't want them to an extent the doings over things and it seems to me that we've got to face up to the fact that the complex conditions of urban society they you can't maintain the peace in the order of the community amongst so many different and opposing groups without in some major getting overall support of those groups you can enforce the ball on the margin if you like you had the support of the community in which those marvelous you are located and it seems to me this is thing the important consideration for the police here that if there isn't some section of the community a group which withholds it's all and has the feeling of a lack of confidence and what's going on and doesn't feel that dave can caught the attention of the police in the green status but they are about that as a matter of major concern simply because if they address it they will have the effect of giving the support of those people and forcing a lot of those wiley being in st lois we have with us tonight the chairman of the police

community relations council in the missouri director of the national conference of christians and jews mr virgil border and i have lots to the e mails and some early remarks that he wants to make them are contradictory of some of the things that have been said a little bit contradictory but first let me say that we lived in this border tonight however regret market cheaper just broadens our lives it was this year i wouldn't say that we've been working here and say those or some ten years or so no communication the kind of thing that our good friend the world has been talking about and around very optimistic about the only of foreigners or tweet ways that policeman our desires really of unity health we've seen concerted operation taking place years extent now that every

industry that is taking place i don't suppose that each of these districts line of black at least five hundred people involved in each of the three year thousands of people are involved in various forms of this committee and the staff that are working on this for over a bar it was the deal how we're going to get back you but we want to go to detroit where i think the temperature is that someone high in no reverend plagues church why atlanta it's been the

place oh really yeah right oh no you know now

why don't we at night it's big i

mean you were the chief of police is an early philadelphia studio her chief plus l can you work when you add something new out to this dialogue with your arsenal and i believe of the detroit police officers association are you on leave from here i'm not achieve a place i mean adelaide police officers association i stand corrected i said i like to answer the reverend clay i think there's been a many a self appointed leaders throughout the negro community who as stated that they represent the negro and i think it's a proven fact that in these areas were they had a vote for what's right after the riot there labeled in on a pension system for the los angeles police officers an eclectic seventy five percent of a wide area in detroit where there is over six hundred thousand negroes

very few of these people protested and riot i think that in the next week there's going to be a committee of negro leaguers business leaders stand up and make a statement make a combined statement that no one speaks for them wraparound olds favorite memory so would you are there would you address to sell more specifically to the problem in detroit rather than the problem elsewhere is that i think that they reverend craig himself state said faith he's faithfully people of detroit i have to say it in the try that there were our six hundred thousand euros in detroit and certainly they did not participate in any riots there and play has stated that the only thing that they're i approve was that the negroes good up rise and it did not prove anything because it was fought to a standstill and i think that he made a statement the head help from other negro leaders like carmichael and wrap around but certainly it would not be a standstill and they would have won i ask him what did the negro can only want the negro community

fortunately the detroit and ask for more police protection they want protection they've asked for more community programs and i'm happy to say that in our letter to the police commissioner we too have requested more police community relations and i think that they are about to set up a storefront the system in detroit where a patrol in will be involved in it will be talking to the people in it really but at the same time what we are charged with the fending for ourselves or we are here and the fence of the police department over here and he found that while police and to do that that's

right that advocated it very weapons the very weapons are qualified for the ol likely to fight on about keeping things he had advocated nine million dollars that might have something about this old rivalry get a weapon evergreen state that has not been part of the indian squad they've either detroit police department and i liked that moment but it was the birth of the new galilee baptist church and the chairman of the defense committee of the end of a political will if they're worth on this fall a rifle with riot police department god my aunts and once up and he's talking about mr miller let's get noon the romans collier but reverend please keep that little thing in iran than individually as you questions are going to let the government comment about the weapon about her and your name is

this week do you oh you're seeing incredible thickness of both saw steel and mason about it begins to come upon impact with target karen shocking mutilating maiming and james leaving gaping holes and it started a soldier recently returned from viet nam told me this week that in the zone where it was just on a rival now unused that was considered so deadly that was fired only on orders from an artist of captains right behind and that deep distress that is certainly gets it wants a combat assault weapon and would like to know why i am also distressed at the destructive power of the storm right now about the left

to right with an unlikely that that many innocent people can be here permanently or maimed by its use even people locked in their homes so the rival militia movement reverend bradley can ask me a detroit police officer who is in philadelphia little later the answer to your question of why they're doing this meanwhile an interview and then interrupts you and then i asked her back a race and you're the fact that detroit is a very familiar neighborhood to him his headquarters are in ann arbor about this in terms of of weapons and then i wanted all worked for us for a reaction to dr who sought about this whole issue of lethal weapons and non lethal weapons that they were in that they had achieved nae nae so will grier's objective i doubt whether an armed police in the sense of the stone a rifle easily won in a democratic society i doubt

whether we want to calculate a policy of policing that is based on the use of weapons against the citizenry and i certainly for one her with questions serious lay the basis and what such a policy is made have you gotten reaction to this kind of of technique was our actions to that i think it seems that police are more concerned with are all putting them riots and are enforcing law and don't seem to be concerned with some of the causes of leading to some of the distress and to the riots also they react with repressive measures and we're going to our surprise what people were going to kill an song and i think this whole question of these new weapons of police are on getting up is getting quite out of hand and i think in particular besides use rifles a chemical called next which is a tear gas sprayed that's been purchased in large quantities by many

a police departments around the country before we go into the techniques and technicalities of mesa i want interrupted as mr marcel in philadelphia the president of the detroit bully police officers association if he has any i think that he wants to say about the stoner rifle were in detroit her the question that was raised by the naval clergyman can you can you know minutes i'd like you just come in on the left gentleman and said that the police are getting more interested in and no riots and crying rather than now in the causes i want to tell those gentlemen that the police officers is not his job for causes we're supposed to be fighting crime and the riots or whatever the situation as i think we were allowed to do that and let other people who are problem but i have to go along with this rifle they assume that we have are hundreds of rifles we're only asking for a hundred and fifty four i specialize grow because we have no way of by the snipers other than a specialized

through special train in under command and we need something like i don't want you to want to keep red eye but i want to interrupt interject something that i was informed about the other day and that is this that in twenty three ryan cities that were studied meticulously by the kerner commission on urban disorders and others so far there has not been won through death due to civilian sniping now that isn't to say that there wasn't sniper like yankee allow us to monitor <unk> <unk> was wiretapping mr harrington i was asking him a specific question about sniping well when you say when you say profiling of that of the whole problem with might be theirs was a warlike condition that we got into a family that not want to get into that we're not prepared for consequently are asking for these rifles we do not we want to prevent trouble without assay they say were out

there trying to kill black people we're trying to save everybody as people were not out here to kill anybody away sunday fans i think that they the people have a demand for protection of property in their life where not out here to kill people i was asked as and forty three people and up and i said that's too many and al lapierre follow that says arming himself towards the police know it sings a matinee at the black militants or were rights groups are arming themselves so they went their automatic weapons they have shotguns they are building stockpiles of our top cocktails they have all others sort of homemade weapons that they have made all the direct that the police than what i did through it you know i know john koskinen managed in this as you know members of the national rifle association are not only encouraged to have weapons of various kinds but it's made easy for them to get weapons under the auspices of the federal government would you say that they should be treated in a different

way than the other and black citizens in terms of access to weapons i don't see the connection between the national rifle association of which i am on my murder which i say is it respected organizations and people got letters from the rifle association i get it on the fall ballot they falsified records a lot of like government records and i if i am not mistaken at this concrete brolin plays a book and the prosecutor for a lot of wine these records in which they share what is the there are carpets and they're arctic and their reason for getting these automatic weapons not because the police are getting and i wanted you to get lots of last week's bombs john wells says her professor rees wants to ask you a question now but drama call the speaker knew her and i wonder why you think the people in the work would want to arm against

you why would they want the arm against wade yes it did you are a good reason that this tv camera can pick this up they get that battle at the y there will get the man ever presents the white power structure there's another article the lapse was great or yellow white racist police right an enormous other things too you want me imaginable say here now we got the what they get the four legged into like a bass we know none of them are the brothers and sisters are going to stand for the board they left behind and for propaganda they wanted a therapist has only between the police and the members of a minority group it grew you sort of perfect example two tonight of why there is not really for the police i want good long look at reverend cooley for me

that we ought to you later they fear that white policemen on the ones who aren't working toward for the white power structure the way we live number one if he knows of any case in the black community where there are automatic weapons the y nominee this was hillary's a way that we get a roundup that may people in the city and our are age and arsenal automatic weapons like you know were gaining a narrow very close with a song i like and also of like david wiley that's filled with hundreds of faithful either been locked up or carrying guns i like that you and other wealthy or do you believe that there has ever been a case of

police brutality against a black citizen in the city of york you typically use i have to tell you ari there was awarded by the name of either brown she was arrested by two police officers and charged with assaulting them in newark in the work she was negro she was brought to trial and a conversation during the trial a prosecutor heard these police officers talk about how they had read this story against this one he removed himself from the case and took the witness stand himself and testified as to what he had heard the case was dismissed the interesting thing is that these two police officers as tilted today not had charges brought against them for perjury

already the department brought charges the heroin that i'll all bought the farm in the yard right now that is a result of that particular incident jury charges county prosecutors <unk> we made it up to the north pole a site not only why isn't it up to the north which our story begins a citizen of them women of the hour this one was convicted the municipal court you had to win this case on a bail of this prosecutor had not been willing in fact win that that he heard these men say the things you thought would have been convicted in and higher for only say it is less determined to admit that there are two sided there aren't isolated cases we will be able to a y i was asked to

meet with the governor of new jersey governor richard hughes after the meeting he pulled me aside and said to me you know bob i heard that the police are out to get you i would give you my card in case you run into anybody that's going to do anything to you and tell him that you met with me and you know me about that where governor in fact did hear the police officer out to get someone in the community now your plants whether the governor and made this complaint like you know i don't have any plans so our bodies <unk> international i interrupted you a moment ago it wasn't completely off the train of thought you have something that you work on and we're now guess i had about fifteen think of why the game to come back and save money but that now that i got the mike why i like to say all of them day one in the city of philadelphia a colored they came forward and squeal on ryan ryan it's a color organization for

arianna revolutionary action movement now this organization had hired an issue until the police commissioner the mayor of philadelphia the district attorney of philadelphia and he pointed out to the police and to the fbi whether potassium cyanide was stashed away so that when they started the riot they work on a poison pill pain on a policeman now i won as davis reverend over the joy flow into the leader of the colored people in detroit because i have a book in then reader's digest which is a very respected book and it states that do the new york times saying that the executive secretary of the naacp and the city of the joy that means the police because they didn't put force into the right area still enough not to let one force or don't they want force i also hear about this high powered rifle and so on in this same bar i

don't yeah they do it other countries in the other countries they on their police riot squad with machine guns they have special family traits in england and all over the world they given their police the tools to do the job now the people up and make their mind up is hard right now to interrupt you in a tough spot here and you're referring to an individual mind were going down the chief the bacterial jenkins can you pull some of these things together have un and get a bounce out of this discourse bye bye right

here tom ashbrook robert caldwell the amount of pride in it must be correct and that is exactly what people think of a t i listen to the ilo has been going on here and i i know the gentleman until the bottom of what really contend that one of the things that i'd like to give back all of the white beard and the fact that they believe the plot and that he thought that the car ride home things in the who were in support of the plane on them on autism that city that they have something i certainly haven't been in a somebody who said this is not something one of them decide that

now one of the things that we've got to understand is that's why they did not have the same reason to complain of people who they really are what is that soraya this is all because a policeman to make a difference in the treatment are reported and why why is that so that it's all because of a vote they belonged to eighty jars a race of people who win this nation feel about what would be and it was made in the golden light and it is this a mine knows that in america we may be politically what enabled for a long time and the majority of whites they'll feel it was right here in the whites and a lot of the three different policemen out of them in this regard i think the police department is working on the problem we haven't cured by any means there are some police got a bomb in here we have an initiative that we move into a new era a new era and that they will reorganize their attitude toward people

talk about the fact that the police departments have got to realize that i think most of the police feel they are representing the majority of the people in the community i think in atlanta ga when the police department knows why not me it was that it happened in detroit and white that has been a poor city policeman didn't you were not having that problem is time is running out on this we're going to get back to you liable for them for the moment to alderman joseph clark in st louis and their debts and further reaction from you alderman moore morning before we book and i think that the only community relations with us realize that death is that the two races in america reveals

that help they have and by people in your polling i'm going to all on the possibility that white have again it reflected in the white policeman that it can jordan egypt and that generally white people for that and that the police have her and others that we are how can we mobilize the gyrations in america to remove some of the injustices against illegal people have a really good job follow that will be on top in the moment and i believe that the more they fled the ongoing war and thank you for the question

free airtime discussions where we went into things like some cultures of police and the poor whether they were black white or wrong let's get into that in the framework of reverend williams a statement from atlanta minutes ago dr posen what is your reaction full i think the you know there are sub cultures i think that historically the black people have seen in fact the policemen have been reinforces of depression a lot of why the white community i think that even though the notes some subversive all attempts at this point and partly sponsored you a little bit about this i think that they have to deal with the stark reality that they don't have to do a great deal in order to show how black people in this country that they can trust god trust them and that they're not being oppressed i think that it's very important that

the community community have something to say about police operations and perhaps this is a basic problem of the community particularly the black community has never had anything to say about police function or how policemen are treated them in their own communities for instance why does a blackening up to put up say with racist policeman why don't they have there right to say we don't want this race is policeman who calls our children may get working in our community why can't they expel that police might seem that this is a rite of the white community and labor community as to put up with this type of thing because they don't have any power so the policeman get away with the moment professor mendelsohn i'm never i think there's something so that before we switch to him as an ex officer of the law do you share my concern that there has been a polarization right here tonight

between officers and civilians whites and blacks on this program and is it doesn't reflect the division in the country and if so are other meaningful ways to get at very definitely as a matter of fact of art a generalized a conversation that seemed to need indicate the sense in which the police on one hand for example they see themselves as concerned with this problem in one way and one will reverend call attention to the sense in which we do not put the police in a position of solving the social problem is entirely importance and we're focusing on the police in relation to the social problems today that their input not be such as to emphasize opposition to a solution these problems i put it this way the present time the attitudes expressed by at all this is the whole thing off the exception the chief and there was in the direction of suggesting that we got a bunch of trouble makers here and the police role is essential to deal with them i mean the debate which emphasize that kind of a dealer or rising the same thing even more because what they're doing is

suggesting a an absence of concern withdrawing from addressing the basic problems and identifying as the police with a solution of the problem dr mendelson on them or do you think the moment has overstated the case said you think that the police themselves have been isolated from the community thank you but joe is thinking i would agree with the first oil and i think that much of a difficult days that exist that they were his own and other populations lot of other big thinkers say mr mathers has been and accountable for voters' attitudes that grow our love of new relationships of the edges the nra is that the community that when a place in other words went through a very complex

systems they were an avid tequila clues and so forth and that very little definition festival dollars and most thursdays linden about an invocation delivered extent this is not that the recovery centers they have not to roam among about five the population in the cases of negroes in the silos and goes but that certainly doesn't focus on four spots of thousands of a drill in the arctic is omar professor mendelsohn and i promise

you it hasn't been an indian raid or a blizzard in the rocky mountains but i wanna know for a moment to reverend planes congregation in detroit in as reverend played if i can still get in nobody i think we played with no denying that there is a struggle in this country we don't know back at the

hall the reverend or on a crowd so to speak but i would like you to address your self to just what he said well i think reverend clegg like many other black people in this country are very angry because they're not listen to the charges and other problems that they bring to the establishment are continually of brushed aside thought that there really isn't any dialogue the uk police community relations programs generally are not a two way type of dialogue the public relations program where the police try to sell their self image as a trying to do tonight and i group in philadelphia and that is there's no admission on a pot of bending that there's a problem other things have to do with i think the black community very frustrated art of course reverend clyde does not represent the entire of like a mini put a very an important and significant the segment and i think that that

is i think a great animosity veltman developing because researches so challenges in psychiatry as sort of a social scientists are going to the community they do studies are they find out a lot of the dances in a sense of the problem but nothing happens if things continue the same way and i think we're faced with the basic facts perhaps the unbending racism of the confrontation showing itself more and more and the polarization let me ask you as a sociologist professor eastern very quickly we want to pick up with the border and save those shortly time it keeps going to get near you reacted well i think that there's a tendency to talk about the population as a whole and how pleased that a garden to ignore the fact that it tends to be concentrated in the ghetto and in many ways this one precinct is like the slum school it doesn't get the best of the police department and indeed

there are it's probably the least dialogue at that level of a clear that i myself am disappointed to see that the kind of dialogue which we think should be going on in the community can't even go on television does the border in india set laws what are your thoughts at this point certainly have analysts and when we are correlations we believe of course was the junior partner society isn't crucially important positions harden relations either variable than we have a conviction that this will be the no we also realize that martin leaves in our relations as again and we reversed night and they often awkward an excruciating position at least or what it instead in st louis with a border that can you tell me of your experience what white policemen are going along the specific

line we have been raising our patients on why professors is there any interaction the west a border between officials of the police department are patrolmen in the police department and residents of a white neighborhoods to sort of interact in terms of understanding the problem yes we have these movies that are active throughout the year every day every week he says the officers we have problems we have the

word ghetto storefront of roman johnson i i meant to come to you earlier and and i'm not a very good traffic cop why would certainly slow what happened in your or your usual amount of crap people sitting and probably three of those to other people and their complaints about the condition of their residential area and then we had another party and complaining about a girl about a movie is that is that early that's awesome is a good one a very lively a day does that mean that these people are taking these things very seriously have an event not a real sincere beliefs or from evidence that facade on one particular day i didn't i didn't quite hear

the end of that the activity for that one particular day the letters at an average day for day or very thin in philadelphia may i ask you what your order in general and one he's a white police officials at philadelphia in particular if you know are doing along the specific line of police community relations or do you feel like it's a waste of time our department in philadelphia has had a community relation program gone on for many many years and in my opinion it's a wasted time because as we have to put up with people like wraparound carmichael and people such as that one hundred and two hundred million people and the feds of policemen if you would let me say it by a bounced all around the

country you know with policemen are not responsible because people riot on account of what an educational problem is it that i get the proper education we policeman are not responsible because people are not getting jobs and get paid big salaries with policeman or not they're responsible for a lot of things we policeman didn't set carmichael over to the other side the daily prayers this country an effort of a gaping i went in as rapid round to the man that the american flag be taken off the stage the boy had thought but have trouble spots away without stopping and i say it you know and i think we have so much and i think it's time for a villain is probably not sure yet what was the reason you mean as thriving let people's psyches you know you have bent over backwards all night to try to rectify the ones that will go on a walk out that we have every reason in a while to walk out on you tonight because you repeal of the lettuce was a it all many of these things that you got the experts then you've got the expert who was on a

presidents crime commission what say how they would handle a riot let's say what they would do if they had to go into a riot area what they do what their clubs where when that day and i'm a zionist idea what all the experts the people of this country remember that last year bryan went out some papers and all what was legit and it's only do that he said people a crime is being committed on why villains and it's only one thing lively to a crime and society and that the policeman as the new record and i had an agreement that because they're these ghettos the conditions at it why dont wyman rundown housing and several other causes were not closed by the police and the placement i want to be dead then there's the bigfoot that's something quite well why wait another week to about the preserve on order not to go

around for spring community services because we have arranged for with law and order now i am completely flabbergasted at its helm and if i should call mattel man and the jury with wiley is preachy i was always told that the truth of the gospel were supposed to preach and while american and positively preaching hate now i'm beginning to wonder whether he isn't minister of prize for a minister of satan their attackers put the ball back here in the court of the experts in new york and we have very very little time i think really the question is what could and should be done been and when asked you basically because you were a sharp yourself and i don't want it make these policemen in in not in uniform feel that we are trying to make an offensive that was the farthest from my fault well i think the situation that we find ourselves is going to dramatically illustrated

tonight because what has happened is that we have reduced this dialogue low the question whose side eye on outside of versailles well that statement of the case is entirely irrelevant and beside the point and of american society except that as the terms and conditions all the day addressing the problem and our future's very vehemently i'm inclined to believe that our concern with the police this evening is not to burden them with a responsibility to the whole problem but rather to suggest the sense in which a sensitive or god or their role in addressing the past which they are assigned will indeed minimizing some degree the kind of pensions which are rampant a society when the various groups and it is important that we make certain they're getting their input they do not further aggravate the situation and not that they cause but it's very important very important that we seek with the police actually give us the time in terms of which we can resolve these basic issues where there's a time joan <unk> well as chief harrington an end to

jenkins excuse me an atlanta to do the impossible chief genuine about thirty seconds give us your ideas of what should be done if we just have very little time and i apologize for it life can take years these maybe they can do that all the non union they're compatible with all the problems that they are we are ordained in our nation the

humanity are you using along the way are my opinion neuter really all we are well integrated partly manner that they envy that ms lee i don't see how we can close without my making this comment it is my view that you may make the police department in this nation as good as you are at that moment that they can do what they want the moment that a moment we'll get less time this were not sure the cause of rock the global community and i've been prominent out for the white community it must begin to work at changing the basic attitudes and i make and so that it's done the police department of the navy will we shall not removed by doing that because a ravenous snake and assuming that

that is a true statement about their food so let's get back for a moment to something that you and i were discussing far earlier in the seventies nonlethal weapons including mace it seems to be a solemn promise that you can't have anarchy you have to suppress violence but how do you do it and how do you as a doctor a medical doctor feel about this kind of thing as it i think it's it's good to look for nonlethal weapons but it seems that the way the police department is going about it can be quite dangerous to the entirely by community and life threatening then jen right to the government asking for some information about this particular chemical yes i did i wrote to the food and drug administration about the chemical mace and they wrote me back and they said that they had no jurisdiction over the testing of this compound because i was for police use enough or to sell to the general public so that's the compound has not been tested adequately by any agency in fact the testing

done by the company has been ludicrous and it seems to me that the chemical of this type that could be used in riots as a danger that we know nothing about it it for all we know it can produce deformed babies they can produce cancer other blood diseases are many other things that will be a life threatening you can have them sneeze today and i thought one year i think it's very important that the police departments also take this and consideration and i think all of these weapons should be withdrawn and nine years until that properly tested soundbite of our government factories we're certainly seeing in these last two hours of the polarization i keep coming back to that word not just out of habit but because it is a hateful word unfortunate to describe the situation what can be done what should be done well let me say that we had had a rather narrow

conception of the police role tonight as one of the law enforcement that exists in terms of the rest and forbes i take it but the responsibility falls upon the police in our society to preserve the peace and preserving what is it is there a difference is very important historically the power of arrest which has given to the police with the power of every citizen has the power to arrest the one had a felony commitments presence or against him but in addition to that we would think of the place of the community were citizens behaving relationship toward one another that is in terms of a lawful relations people and society and that means that the police just conceive of their role as to how they work with people in a community to preserve public worker and in that sense i think the police must go out into the community and struck in st louis that the storefront place is organized for people to come in rather than

for the police to go out and for community activists seemed to me that the term police community relations is not a gimmick is not a particular kind of relationship is really the meaning a new condition of action on the part of the police departments in our time until the stresses in the strains that are attendant upon this kind of a complex social order which were living and development the great massive groups that live there themselves and apart from and confront the rest of the society singing it's incumbent upon the police went to the police develop some basis for engaging the complexities and variations of the society to develop new mechanisms under which they can relate to those groups not american from kenya popularly opposed to kenya put those a little more and lay terms and in with within with a specific hypothetical example of a moment what well for one thing i think we have to experiment with and explore the possibility of new

ways in which the police officer can perform services in relation ship to specific local communities we have to establish a means by which they can come in the police can go out not me not the storefronts that means a dynamic program providing service for people as a matter fact were doing that all the time and some sections of the community and literally as in that connection i think it's terribly important that we learn to think of an organization so that the police can link the citizen immediately or with services that are in the community is this realistic dr posen yes i feel that the community really has to be more involved in police function i think that this is the only way that we're going to solve some of the basic problems including the problem of communication problems in the wild differences of outlook in song but there has to be real community because a patient where they have some decision making power about how the police function in a community so that this is something that is probably turned over to its proper domain which is a community are you asking for voters to take

more responsibility at the polls in local elections in terms of issues that deal with public safety how do you get the individual more involved assuming the lead in trying to fix a traffic ticket or something and that how well i think it seems to me that on both sides the community very much concerned about police function in one way or the other and that the material other resources for pictures of a shell already there reverend clyde grow group river much like the pacific in some way an end police function of having something to say about how police did function and their community it's at the police have been very resistant to this idea because it looks like i guess it is they have to turn over a bit of their power power to a civilian authority and the civilian authorities basically of the community i and rod you have to interject of thought here that i haven't the faintest idea of it literally but it struck me there in the program and it was this i got the definite impression that

the reverend played and his congregation were zeroing in basically on you as the experts on the one hand and that mr harrington and a policeman from work and the policeman from detroit and the policemen from camden for zero in on you from the other side of the ottoman and the traffic cop is this natural and if so what is it really i think it's quite true because whiteness in speeches except it is the inevitability of the necessity for asserting their position in their terms in their way and willie well this seems to me is incompatible with me philosophy and the principles of american democratic society where a prolific society and people ought to be encouraged indifference and an expression of that difference and a lot of the way people with those differences without the kind of confrontations i'd like to see the police abandoned this big bold begun thinking about the police review board

i don't have the one that was ever in favor of that had been publicly against it as a solution of our problems simply because i didn't think it got to the root of the problem namely the developing the confidence of the public in the way in which the police addressed the claims in protest of our grievances and i do think the police won't take seriously into into their minds the possibility of developing confidence on the part of all searches public bite in they're always spend it in developing channels by which grievances can be presented to them except and without prejudice processed in a responsible way an accounting answer we have a little simple to build and that is done then the many of these things will decide they have occasion to think of the decade do on the merits of having or one of the cities at the saw the boat been at these people they all agreed gentleman we would've been present you a silly strange way if we had thought that we were going to solve anything and two hours plus tonight we explore what's wrong we certainly determined that there was something wrong

we we saw society and conflict we examine the whole family and we examine some of the things what that are being done professor rees and we're learning from actors problem again and again in different ways and we're looking forward to going into depth with you on a more specific aspect of it and some weeks alone as this as we go into it how should we proceed and i'm not just talking about p b l how soon should a specific community proceed to grapple with as well i think its the community must grapple with that at all levels in terms of setting up a dialogue about policy as the decisive word everyone is heard there are responsible business leadership in every community there is the political responsibility there is the responsibility of the police department of the

citizen and we must begin by bringing these together and saying what his policy how do we deal with the problems of police minority relations how does everyone get her this is perhaps an up note to end this particular part of our pto investigative reporting and live interconnect on how is everybody get her thank you gentleman and thank you gentleman out in the remote interconnect in these other six cities profoundly for your cooperation even though we had some saw a sharp exchanges in viewers that is not just what makes a horse race that's what makes an open society stale thank you they bail notes that several public television stations plan to fall this broadcast with discussions on police minority relations in their own communities maybe i'll compose with a personal point of view what that would be morgan in new york

a christmas gift is traditionally wrapped in bright paper and tied with a red ribbon down with a piano wire of high tensions is weak seen the problem of police community relations is not approve a package but it has a package that has to be opened and its explosive contents examined with great care concern and understand we don't think of this republic as a police state yet in many ways all too real we have let it become a kind of police state which recognizes more people more often than the ordinary citizen would care to imagine this is not a conspiracy deliberately hatch my platoons of groups in blue uniforms this is a situation which we ourselves create as society has become bigger richer more complex more impersonal depending increasingly on push buttons and power grid and gadgets human interactions within society

have paradoxically multiply they should function smoothly they don't instead of boiling the machinery with common sense we neglect we pass laws demanding that the machinery where that we have those laws to the police by giving a sledgehammer to a garage mechanic an order them already overworked to repair the mechanism there was already too much for them to fix as i've said from protecting fire hydrants picketing few tips before the civil rights revolution broke out now society and the police who serve it seemed hypnotized by one fear driven motivation to protect or restore lala an order in quotation marks of course no civilized society can live in amity riots must be quiet but more than a tenth of the population some twenty three million black american citizens are asking

law and order in twenty cities the police have become a kind of a law unto themselves the president of the united states a civilian is supreme commander in chief of the armed forces but in new york the nation's largest city mayor john lindsay does not control his own police force in many other cities police chiefs themselves are not even in command they are prisoners of a cistern blocking progressive reform the powerful pressures of police unions so called must be contained by civilian authority this does not mean coddling criminals this does not mean the disarming of police are abandoning the use of force to quench the flames of chaos ignited by burn baby burn extremists it doesn't mean it doesn't mean justice to the dispensing of evenhanded justice but whitey whose majority now dominates american society is in no mood for

such equality without the hypocritical loophole assuring that some people are more equal then others and the police reflect this lethal projects like a host of termites this attitude unchecked and more through the very rafters of the bill of rights and collapse are three institutions in ruins around it's so jarring though it seems in this joyous season it is not an entirely to unwrap this package now for unless and until it is defused there can be no meaningful piece on this american earth and the eternal issue of goodwill toward men will have a hollow mocking rick that's the shape of those observers point of view and this has been another on the continuing series of experimental interconnected broadcasts produced and edited for public television by the status of the educational university and community television stations your yard with the assistance of the

royal baby it's because baseball is because because because this was a public television station in your area receives the money it needs to operate through grants and contributions from abroad one of the major brands financing your station was designed to last for years it began in nineteen sixty four providing matching funds of a declining basis each year here's how it works the first year you're

station was granted one dollar for every dollar contributed by its viewers a second year seventy five cents was given for each local power in nineteen sixty seven fifty cents and now in nineteen sixty eight your station will be granted just twenty five cents for each dollar raised this means your community supported station needs financial help now and more help than in recent years the war your station raises the more grant money it will receive it all during this season of giving you let your community supported public television stations to your gift list for the next time something that's december twenty fourth december thirty first cbo will not be seeking more time of the youth present christmas and here in programming specially prepared for it you by your local public television station we take this opportunity to wish you a merry christmas and i have a new video will

return to get their sunday january seven is this sunday december seventeen this is it