Evening Exchange; 2220; Death Penalty / Weekly News Analysis / HIV/AIDS

The uproar over death penalty pardons and commutations President Bush opposes the University of Michigan affirmative action plans and where HIV is on the rise in America. It may surprise you. All next on evening Xchange. Hi I'm Kodjoe Anandi in the state of Illinois. Outgoing governor George Ryan issued a moratorium on executions undertook a study of the death penalty then just before leaving office pardoned four death row inmates and commuted the sentences of more than 160 others. In Maryland the outgoing Governor Parris Glendening issued a moratorium on executions executions authorize the death penalty study of the

University of Maryland then left office. The new Governor Robert Ehrlich says he will lift Glen beddings moratorium. What's going on here. As with so much else in America the issue of race is a key factor in the controversy. Joining us now to help sort it all out. Angela Davis is a professor at the Washington School of Law at American University. Good to see you again. And Prince George's County State's Attorney. Newly elected. Glenn Ivey good to have you here. Pleasure. Welcome congratulations. Good luck to you. Thank you. Angela Davis allow us to start with Illinois where Governor George Ryan is being pilloried in and out of the media for essentially commuting the sentences of 167 death row inmates and pardoning four others. After looking at a study that he said he'd been looking at for three years and looking at all of the death penalty cases of course in the state of Illinois there are 13 people who are on death row who have to be released because they simply had not committed the crimes they committed. Yet there was outrage it seems not only across the

state of Illinois but all over the United States about this. George Ryan in your view do the right thing. Absolutely. While there's not outrage by everyone there a lot of us in criminal justice can you applaud him for doing this courageous thing. This is a man who saw tremendous flaws in the death penalty in his state. He was very careful about it when he saw that there were so many people on death row who were in fact innocent. He was appalled because he had previously supported the death penalty thought it was implemented fairly when he found out that it was and he commissioned a study it was done carefully and the results were similar to the results in most studies that have been done around the country including the one in Maryland which showed tremendous flaws not only racial disparities but actually innocent people on death row. So he studied every single case for a three year period and he reached the conclusion that the only way that he could be fair and just was back commuting those sentences and in the cases of people who are actually innocent pardoning them and that's what you should have done that was the right thing to do. And so I applaud him I think he did the right thing.

Well I said there was a lot of outrage because the people who are supporting Governor Ryan's decision are not getting a lot of headlines in the news. The people who are expressing outrage about it are and I guess that's the way the news media works in this country. However with those people who are opposed to it are saying look this is something we the citizens wanted. This is something we approve. You just can't take it away from us arbitrarily you one man hold your views. I don't think any of those people are saying we want a death penalty where innocent people are being executed. I don't think anyone's saying that. And in the face of that evidence I think that most people have a hard time defending the death penalty. I think that where the outrage is coming from the victims were obviously very very hurt because they're in pain and they they believe some of them do not all by the way but some of them believe that they can have some closure in their lives by having someone else put to death. And I think there are many answers to then Governor Ryan has presented many of them and I think that will. And prosecutors and all of us need to do a better job of trying to help victims in

those cases in ways other than showing them the death penalty as the answer because it's not and it's not going to bring their loved ones back. And it's not going to ease the pain in fact a lot of the resources are being used to kill people that the state could be used to help these victims in other ways and I think that's what should be done. Glenn Ivey you will be confronting this and obviously very practical ways voters will say we voted for the death penalty we want the death penalty it is the law in the state of Maryland. We want you Glenn Ivey to use it. How would you respond. Well I mean I think we've got live cases where we're actually looking at what we're going to do there but I'm not sure where the voters are in Maryland at the moment. I mean I think we've had sort of if you go back over a couple of year period and look it just been sort of a roller coaster I think you had the impact of the Innocence Project and they're finding innocent people on death row that led to the Illinois scenario where the moratorium was put in place. We had one of the early Innocence Project people as well. Kirk Bloodsworth I believe his name was and that was part of what I think led

Governor Glendening to put a moratorium in place in Maryland. Then you had the sniper scenario which I think made a lot of people kind of go the other way. I think there was a lot of anger a lot of fear and concern about that. And you know I heard people talking about putting people to death during that stretch that really surprised me. So now we've come back we've got this study out of the University of Maryland which is saying there are racial and geographic disparities in the state and it's sort of kick the debate up again. My sense is that people are fairly ambivalent about it as I am in Maryland. And I think the goal should be twofold One is to see what happens. We've got some legal challenges that are pending that actually go to the underlying statute in Maryland that supports the death penalty and how it's imposed. The second is the study and I think what you're going to have is when the first after the governor peels off the moratorium and that case goes up probably from Baltimore County there'll be a court challenge that

attaches the study basically this court of appeals need to take a look at this. What should you do here. So I think we need to go through those things and I think there'll be a political process in Annapolis as well. Let's go back to Illinois for a second. The moratorium was already in place as governor George Ryan was leaving office because he decided nevertheless to commute those sentences. Do you think he went a step too far. Well I mean you know the commutation powers the governor's right. I think you know if you look at it from a public impact standpoint he certainly could have done it in a way that I think would have resonated better with people in the middle on the death penalty debate. I mean to the extent that he had reviewed each case individually which is what he said he did it. But I think he should have done a better job of explaining why he did it in each case. What we saw live in Illinois. But you know I've talked to people out there was just sort of the you know 100 and whatever it was 67 or people who commuted and it had a sort of arbitrary feel I think to a lot of people and maybe that's

partly media maybe it's partly the governor not explaining it. But I think for a lot of folks the reaction was Jeez it felt you know too random we should have he should have sort of laid it out better. And I think that's part of why you've got the governor in Maryland not following suit. Well we gave it we gave a judicial context let's get the political context. This is a governor who is under a cloud of corruption. This is the governor who is probably thinking of what his legacy is likely to be. This is a governor who probably does not want his legacy to be. He went out under a cloud of corruption with the possibility that he might be indicted the possibility that he might go to jail. This is a governor who wants to be remembered presumably in a slightly different way. Is that important. I don't buy that one bit if I don't understand that argument at all. I mean I never heard of Governor Ryan before he started looking at the death penalty seriously of course he has these bribery charges. All this has done is bring more attention to those charges. I mean you know let's face it you know everyone now is looking at him the press internationally as well. You know obviously nationally started looking at him and

then at the bribery charges start to come out nationally so you know people keep talking about it more and more. So that was his goal. It certainly wasn't successful. I also have to respond. It did. It was arbitrary. The fact of the matter is and he looked at every single case he didn't do it arbitrarily Let's talk about what's arbitrary. What's arbitrary is the way the death penalty is implemented to start with and that's the problem most people don't understand that there's a death penalty statute in every state that gives prosecutors a broad range. A lot of discretion a lot of what they call aggravating factors and what they have to do is decide whether a particular murder case is death eligible or whether or not they can bring the death they can't bring it in every murder case but only in cases that involve certain factors like if a police officer is killed if there are multiple victims. If it's a murder for hire. But the law doesn't require prosecutors to bring the death penalty in every case that falls in that category so that's where discretion comes in and that's where the discrimination comes in. That's why we have not just the in Maryland but every study that's ever been done and there's been a lot of them culture. This isn't new.

Indeed the reporting is that what the study found in both Illinois and Maryland are really reflections of what's going on around the rest of the country absolutely. There have been tons of studies. In 1990 the Government Accounting Office with federal agency did a study of 28 28 such studies that had been done at that point and that was in 1990. The vast majority I think 82 percent of them found the exact same thing that the Maryland study found at the federal state that is found. Since there have been numerous other other studies they all have found that and particularly the race of the victim is the factor that determines whether a person lives or dies in a particular state and the federal government and there is no there really is no justification for that. And unfortunately sadly neither the legislature nor the judiciary is doing anything to remedy. I think the only state in the union that has passed legislation that will attempt to remedy is Kentucky and even then they can tell you legislation and the legislation that John Conyers has introduced every year since 1987 I think has never been passed.

And that's the problem that we have in the state of Maryland for a second here. And I have it because the overwhelming majority nine I think of 12 of the death row inmates on death row in Maryland happen to be African-American. And what the study seems to indicate is that if you happen to live in Baltimore City if you happen to live in Prince George's County they are less likely to be death penalty the death penalty is less likely to be invoked because jurors in those jurisdictions won't go for it. On the other hand in Baltimore County where the prosecutor has been much more aggressive in going after the death penalty because jurors there will go forth is that the basis on which you state's attorney will have to make your decision whether or not you believe jurors will go for it. Well it's certainly a factor. I mean you look at the case and try and figure out you know what the likely result would be. I mean one response is interesting the arbitrary argument is one that's been around for a long time the way the Baltimore state's Baltimore County state's attorney's office responded was to always seek the death penalty. And you know whenever the defendant's death penalty eligible. So their goal is

to take discretion out of it. And you know that's not the approach that I'm comfortable with but that's where it is. So part of what's going on in Maryland. It seems to me is that in Baltimore County you've got a prosecutor that always seeks the death penalty in Baltimore City and Prince George's County. You've got prosecutors like me they don't necessarily always seek the death penalty. I think we're more more cautious about it. Well the new governor of Maryland Robert Karluk seems to be doing the exact opposite of what George Ryan did and that is in the wake of the University of Maryland study which points out all of the things that Angela Davis already indicated that it points out. Robert Zoellick says Nevertheless I am going to lift the moratorium on the death penalty. Does that indicate to you that he is simply ignoring the study. Well I mean he made the promise to lift the moratorium before the study came out which saw in of itself. Real shit yeah I mean so I guess it would be fair to say that the study was not a consideration in his

decision. If indeed the study is not a consideration if indeed as he says he would like to look at it on a case by case basis he is going to ask the lieutenant governor Michael Steele who opposes the death penalty to look at it on a case by case basis. And the chief author of the study Professor Raman had noster of the University of Maryland says it won't work. If you look at it on a case by case basis you have to look at it overall. What is your. Well I think it's incumbent upon the Governor and all of us to the extent there is going to be a death penalty in Maryland to take a systematic look at what the problems are as opposed to a case by case law. Well I have to do case by case is the prosecution I mean it really can't you know when a case comes to me I have to take a case by case decision on it or otherwise there's constitutional problems. But in addition to that you know I think we have to walk and chew gum. I mean if there's a problem with the system we need to take a look at it. If there's a way to fix those problems

I think it's it's incumbent on us to put that out if it's not then I think we need to acknowledge that and may take that to Annapolis make the right political decisions. What's the difference between looking at it on a systematic basis or on a system wide basis and looking at it on a case by case basis. First of all it's that if there's a problem with the system we already know there's a problem with the system. We don't need another study. There's a big problem with the system. The problem we're looking at on a case by case basis Cojo is this still will only be looking at the cases after the prosecutor has made a decision to bring him in the first place and that's one of the things that was looked at in this study. Race is a factor in the decision making process for the prosecutor the prosecutor the state's attorney for each one of these counties makes the decision has the final word on whether a case will even be brought as a death penalty case in the first place. And so there is discretion there as you just pointed out. We already know there are disparities there so still will only be looking at it after that critical decision has been made and we already know that that

decision that is the decision of the prosecutor already right. We know that race is a factor and may not be an intentional fact and may be unconscious but we know that the decision to bring the death penalty in the first place. And in cases involving white victims prosecutors are more likely to bring a death penalty case that in cases involving black victims and so to say I'm going to look at this problem after the cases have been brought it is a step or two too late. They say think that they're analyzing. I think that's right. Everywhere except Baltimore County ironically which is where most of. The death penalty cases are coming from because they're not exercising that kind of action problem when you've got one candidate out of Baltimore County death penalty statute in a county death unnecessarily. I know you're not just they're just not exercising discretion. There's one state statute and it's being applied in a different way in every county depending on the proclivities of the particular prosecutor and that is an extreme. Back to what Governor Ryan that you said if it was intended to mask the problems he was having with corruption that certainly has succeeded. But there are others who like you are opposed

to the death penalty who say you know this might not help us that much because the way in which he did it might be perceived in the way Glenn indicated that some people perceive it and that this was one one broad brush with one one stroke and that wasn't looked at very carefully and that may in the final analysis hurt your cause. Do you think that the problem is that the word about how George Ryan arrived at his decision just isn't getting out because our media today depend on shorthand versions. Absolutely because they're just that flies in the face of the facts. Joe The man looked for three years he studied this every single day he worked on this I had the good fortune of hearing him give an hour and a half presentation on this at a speech he gave back in October. He looked along with his death. Every single case it was an arbitrary and it wasn't broad brush and he found these problems in every single case there's no then that's no surprise. And to his credit he had the courage to do the right thing. You know a white.

How do you get your message out over all of the people who will be screaming foul in the media who will be outraged and the media who by the very nature of their indignation and disgruntlement are likely to get more attention than you. I think by being here today I don't on the smelly day because I because I think we do have to get the word out and I'm next. You're actually going to be writing a book on prosecutorial discretion and power and I plan to try to get the word out that when every opportunity I can to do public education on the power of prosecutors and their discretion we have to do what we have to speak out in communities. But as you said the people of Maryland voted for the death penalty with the legislature and other backloaded. So that's exactly right. And I think we have what we have to do is get the word out to the community I think people a fair amount and when they know the facts and they know the facts and when we have politicians who are leaders instead of just trying to do what they think will play well in the press. You know we'll have some success on this. And I applaud Governor Ryan and I hope that others are courageous enough to follow in his footsteps. When I've talked to you about Prince George's County overall for just one minute you as the new state's

attorney for Prince George's County have to do with the reality that in the United States most affluent predominantly African-American community there is this lingering problem of the relationship between African-American communities and the police department in general and in particular with the state's attorney's office and the state's attorney who preceded you is now the county executive in Montgomery County. But there was a particular problem with the state's attorney's office which has to prosecute the cases brought by the police and the police department largely over the issue of race. What's that all about. Well I mean it's been a long problem with Prince George's County. Even when I was a kid we had issues along these lines and you know we can go back to Terence Johnson and beyond. You know I think people know what that history is and that's kind of what it's about. I mean it's come to a head over the last few years with respect to issues about police conduct. And those are flashpoints in other areas as well. So a big focus on in Prince George's County. My sense is that

some of that sort of subsided a bit from the standpoint of you know the rhetoric in the public about is a different face in the place that is that you don't necessarily have the history of. Well I think hostility. I think just have to wait and see attitude out there we had a lot of shootings. I came in office at the beginning of December we had four shootings in three days in mid-December and we've had a couple of other incidents since then. But my my sense is that the public has been willing to take a look at the cases and see if because there have been scenarios in my view where the use of force has been appropriate. So I think the key is for the public to have a sense that we're we're really taking a close and careful look and we're going to try and make the independent judgments based on the merits. So we will continue to try to take a careful and close look at you by inviting you back on an evening Exchange to talk about how that situation develops. Well thank you very much for joining us. Thank you. Angela Davis always good to see you. Thank you for joining us. Good luck on your book. Thank you.

This weekend Perlin anti-war protests in Washington and our analysts weigh in on the death penalty issue. We'll be right back. If a migraine headache is what keeps you from focusing on the job at hand and that job is a military

confrontation with Iraq then the Bush administration has a migraine headache. It's called Kim Jong Il the president of North Korea who now says he's not interested in disarming energy assistance or no. Joining us now to discuss this and other issues. Jack White of Time magazine and the Howard University School of Communications. Joyce Davis of Knight Ridder Newspapers. Clarence Page of The Chicago Tribune and Askia Muhammad of the Washington informer and final call. First let's revisit the death death penalty controversy. Clarence I do not remember seeing any new reports from Illinois indicating a great deal of support from Governor Ryan's decision except from a few columns I read in your newspaper in which one column this one opinion writer said that he had not gone far enough and that he had only looked at the homicides he didn't look at other violent crimes for which people might be in jail even though they happened to be innocent with most of what I hear coming out of Illinois. His outrage and disgruntlement. Well that's us and the media we love outrage in this one. In fact the opinion was so

mixed about Ryan and the death penalty as mixed as it is around the rest of the country. So you could find anybody on either side that you want but it was interesting because my newspaper kind of played a role in this controversy because the Chicago Tribune as well as some some sports journalism students up at McGill at Northwestern and lawyers I mean different cases but people have been freed from death row in the last few years you know more people freed than we're actually getting scheduled for execution. And Ryan finally decided to put a moratorium which you remember if you a few years ago just rolled across the country restoring the death penalty debate Maryland. Former governor now of Parris Glendening at the time was suspended the death penalty there too. And now the new governor Republican Mark Ehrlich has said I'm sorry Bob here. Like I said he's going to restore the death penalty. It's always a hot button issue. But in Chicago and Illinois right after the governor's moratorium was put in

place and you said he was considering overturning these sentences there were a series of hearings by the families of murder victims and the like and that was why they started up the pro death penalty side. So it goes both ways. But race Joyce Davis's continues to be at the center of this dispute and I suspect that America in large measure is divided in part along racial lines on this issue. Well when you look at the percentages and you see that overwhelmingly and you know African-Americans are convicted essentially and sentenced to death sentences particularly if they happen to kill a white person I mean that causes you pause. But I mean I think also with all the new technology coming out and we've found that people are convicted of things and that they really are guilty of the new DNA evidence that does cause you and I frankly I think that they made sense that they step back and take a look at what's going on on the other hand Bob Arnot says I'm not stepping back and I'm lifting this moratorium.

One other point though. The death penalty despite the fact that there's plenty of evidence that has been administered in ways which which are influenced by race continue to enjoy huge support among black Americans majority of black Americans actually in favor of capital punishment. And most people argue this is because they are the predominant victims of disproportionate victims of crime and violent crime themselves. The issue for them. Many black Americans is that you're more likely to be executed for killing a white person than you are for me killing for that for killing a black person. It makes it makes black support for the death penalty in a way counterproductive. It's very it's I find the whole thing very difficult to understand because I'm opposed to the death penalty in all cases including the sniper case we're facing now go back to Ehrlich Ehrlich has now said he is going to live the said before reading the report even that the previous governor Glendenning that commission which showed that there are evidently in the state of Maryland is a bias toward executing blacks in a way from executing whites for the same sorts of crimes I think something like 80 percent of all people have ever been executed

in Maryland in this century or black. And that's an that's an disappointed apportionment that's probably facing blacks. I agree with Senator Russ Feingold and Mark Patrick Leahy who introduced legislation in 2000 when Governor Ryan first instituted the moratorium to impose mandatory DNA testing for all candidate candidates for the death penalty in all states. Also Jesse Jackson Jr. offered companion legislation similar to that. But the fact that DNA lets DNA evidence has come into the into the fore where people can be proven emphatically innocent and or guilty is something that should be applied to all prisoners. Now getting back to Illinois they had found more people innocent than they had actually executed. So you know now if you look at Texas where the president was the executioner in chief of the non-president was executioner in chief were 152 people were executed on his watch and he

says none were innocent. Well that's preposterous. If you look at the fact that out of 25 and in Illinois 13 were innocent and 12 are guilty. Proven by DNA of 152. It's just preposterous that that innocent people have not been executed on his watch. The political circumstances in which Governor Ryan found himself the fact that there bribery charges against him has been used by a lot of people to say look this guy is just trying to deflect attention from himself and some would argue that it therefore hurt the cause of people who are opposed to the death penalty. Well one of my friends will a couple of us from this panel know Chicago comedian Aaron Freeman said that this will make Ryan a very popular fellow in the penitentiary. He gets a lot of political support right now. And I would never read all these books but all these men and it really does not necessarily mean one of the one of the cases involved here is the person of the victim was the person who lived next door to the governor

and who actually had babysit Ryan's children at one point was killed by a man who's now on death row who has since said that if you can't free me kill me. And who does not wish to be relieved of the death penalty unless he goes free. What he has done with the governor has done there is commit these people's sentences so that they will serve life sentences in prison in maximum security prison last year in prison without parole that they will be back on in a population where life life in the Illinois death row is actually in some ways kind of cushy for prison they have solo prison cells they will have to share cells now under this new and so forth so are these guys are innocent. I mean that's a you know it's not easy to me. You're not going to free me then accuse me. Well if you're not innocent then it is not as well. The outrage exists despite the fact that as you pointed out these people are going to maximum security the sentences were commuted they were not free. There were only four people freed.

Does that indicate that there was some degree of thirstiness among symbolic though if you look I happen to be the daughter of someone who is murdered so I understand how victims might feel people who are suffering. If I were in the situation saw that whoever killed my father had suddenly been you know if he were on death row suddenly commuted it would be a symbolic message that perhaps the value of your father is is life that matter to these folks you know what should you be the one in the position to make the decision about what should happen take that risk. That's a that's a good point because I'm not exactly disinterested or dispassionate about this. We do have in many states and there is a provision in the law which allows the relatives of the victim to testify before a jury in the so-called penalty phase of these trials usually we would have a bifurcated process in which a person is first found guilty and then there's a separate phase in which you determine what the punishment would be. And and it is. And they invite members of the victim's family to come to testify. This obviously has an influence on the way juries think about whether the death penalty is or isn't

merited in particular cases. And it's a very emotional very emotional situation. We also find that in polling consistently when people are asked would you forego the death penalty if life imprisonment were guaranteed support for that goes way up support for the death penalty goes way down. I think one of the reasons why so many folks support the death penalty is because they think these guys are going to get out in a few years you know and that and sometimes that has happened. I look at the front page news today and I see where you and inspectors found 11 empty warheads four chemical weapons used in Iraq. There was one that was not in fact empty and that's dominating the news at this point. And I wonder whether that is more important than the president of North Korea saying that even if you give us energy assistance we are not going to disarm given that North Korea is closer to the development of nuclear weapons than Iraq so I guess we can start with North Korea because I can't decide which of the two missions is more important but it does neither can President Bush ever get away this

our problem. You know I mean we've got one guy with nukes and another guy who's been who for 10 some odd 12 years now people have been pushing the president this president previous one to go and invade 9/11 suddenly the White House temple suddenly shifted in favor of invading Iraq. Not that there's any new evidence of a Saddam bin Laden connection. And I think North Korea has caused a lot of Americans to focus on what what is the difference between these two now. Is it just because North Korea has nukes and Saddam doesn't that were negotiating with North Korea. Now with all of other acts the guy makes the US look like a bully in the eyes of a lot of people around the world. And it makes it difficult for us to get allies to go in there with us and we need allies in the vernacular though. You know you can't forget the phrase but you can't whip me. I think that's is the case. United States can beat up Iraq because the country has no means of defense except hand-to-hand combat literally and

just fighting and fighting almost. And they can't defeat North Korea. And so why why why why why why why why why why why why pick a fight with someone you can't beat. They could defeat black and white right off the face. That's not the reason we're still at war with Korea. We we have a cease fire since 1988. Wait wait. What of the differences here though is that the South Koreans are supposed to be our allies and where we have 37000 troops based there don't like the approach that we're taking. And then when you have a lot of bad guys that don't have that we don't have and we don't we don't seem to have any allies who like the approach we're taking in each of these. OK even that weird issue about even the strongest allies in the war in Iraq policy. I say cool let's give the inspectors time so forth. Nobody likes what this administration is doing including some of the members of this station isn't still fighting about what they should do what the approach should be. So it looks like we're possibly headed toward that we will continue to deploy these troops.

News organizations like the one that was right there that are doing their reporters are journalists to the to the battle zone around them. The Pentagon thinks that there's going to be a war. And it seems to be happening despite the fact that many many people that we normally pay attention to have serious doubts about our approach in both situations. Well the administration's intentions about Iraq certainly seem to be clear than its intentions about North Korea and that has been complicated by the fact that Kim Jong il has been saying no I am not simply interested in disarming if you offer energy. And the administration which began by saying we don't want to talk to North Korea then said We will talk to North Korea then said Yes we are thinking of giving you some energy assistance now finds itself in a position where it doesn't seem to know what to do with North Korea is interested in a bunch of things and we also must remember for form first and foremost North Korea loves to play brinksmanship Kim Jong Kim Jong il loves to do it. His father came out to do it. Exactly. I mean you know what two or three weeks weeks ago that they

brought out two machine guns and set them on the DMZ and what was that about. You know like I said we've got 37000 truth now and 37000 seems like a lot. But militarily it's not a lot that's purely a trip wire there. In other words our troops are there in that order. What it means here is that we have American troops subjected to a nuclear bomb would be a big deal that they haven't come out. I mean the guy is clearly. This is two of my favorites because he evidently likes little doughnuts and movies like these guys with these little powdered donuts. So there are certain places in North Korea in Italy where you can buy these little powder that's because a certain number of them are imported because of his sweet tooth. Maybe that's. Maybe about why you're the gluttonously. However I think it's important to note that that Colin Powell is not calling this a crisis. And I think there's a reason for that because there's a certain process for dealing with North Korea

what North Korea want. Kim Jong Kim Jong un is not totally crazy and that's still debatable but some consistent things. He seemed to enjoy the path that he was on with the Clinton administration. Bush came in and just immediately said we're not going to do that. But as we look day by day Bush is doing now what Clinton was doing and who has been in my view and I'm sorry our man was repudiated about in his first months in office. Right and was proven to be correct rather they're going to. Now I've done it. A former Clinton man is the main goal between now anti-war and a lot of anti-war and a few pro-war demonstrations are going to be in town this weekend. And there are the invariable comparison of the anti-war Vietnam protests and this one seemed to be cranking up a lot earlier in this. The war hasn't even begun yet. The shooting hasn't even started of course unless you consider patrolling the two thirds of Iraq's territory with no fly zones or daily bombing raids.

Right now unless you don't consider that war but the actual invasion or the removal of the regime or the regime change in Baghdad hasn't begun yet and all that we're planning what we're going to do afterward seems like one step at a time. But on any given Sunday using the sports analogy but the the anti-war demonstrations have stepped up even before and have been going on for a year now. But there's a lot at stake in this. I mean I think if there is not a good turnout in those anti-war demonstrations this weekend I think you're going to see an administration believing it has a green light and that the polls are right that say Americans are behind this at least not really into the polls indicate that Americans are behind it but only if the rest of the world does. But that you know Candy I wanted to have an impact with this administration is going to have to be so big this entire city is a circle an out and a landslide in October essentially the White House John and I've the crowd was so large that they had to alter the route because the original route would have confined the group to switches which is wonderfully impressive skill but you and I both remember the Vietnam era and the initial demonstrations

were similar that were going on to this big initially but the initial demonstrations were by you know purely anti-war people. I mean people would be anti any war after a certain point if there's a public frustration you start seeing demonstrators who are particularly against this war because of the way it's been here because of the lack of mission et cetera. That's another phase and that's when the White House would begin to take notice. I don't think we're there yet. And so right now we have a massive coalition of people from them. And I want to legalize marijuana they're all there. It's the challenges of the University of Michigan's affirmative action programs and it's undergraduate school and it's law school the Bush administration clearly had three options. They could have supported the programs as they existed. They could have decided to stay out of it completely or they could have decided to oppose the programs the president has decided to oppose the programs after the Trent Lott fiasco. There was some speculation that the Bush administration in order to demonstrate greater sensitivity to the African-American community might choose the option of staying out of it. The president has decided to go into it. Why.

Because it's some hot button issue and he can push it and he can get points with his constituents down home without really having to say race. I mean he he has become so emboldened. I mean since 9 1 1 but I mean even Reince nominated Charles Pickering the Mississippi judge who was repudiated and he announced that he was going to oppose this University of Michigan of the system on the date of Martin Luther King Jr.'s birthday I mean he has no insensitivity or maybe he has a clever plan. Like Ronald Reagan going to Philadelphia we have lost this court and he decided to stay out of this all. No he would have lost of people have left the Republican Party they wouldn't have left them because they have no place to go. He's trying to hear. What he's having. But he's trying to have it in this. Everything else both ways. On the one hand he comes out he makes this public speech denouncing callers and saying this is all wrong when there aren't any calls involved misstating the. But then his Justice Department and the solicitor general file a brief that says you can

knock out this particular program at the University of Michigan without overturning the Baki decision which of course permits the use of race in university. So he's trying to have it both ways. That is the normal kind of thing he's talking out of both sides of his mouth and it is and people need to call him on it. That was key about Bush's statement indeed he did say I'm for diversity so several times and he said but I'm against quote. He said that even more times. He is trying to have it both ways. But the hard right that he is talking about you know there isn't anything from live action to win of the Republican Party which this is their job this is their profession. There's organizations that devote time and money goes and they are all calling the White House when finally set about that we should treat it they see it of Trent Lott. Right. Wait wait a minute wait a minute. No one complaint no one complains to them about the fact that Condoleezza Rice was the point person who made recommendations on several one on one meetings of the president that he followed this course she should have instead of being provost at Stanford University should have been provost at

our dental school or perhaps at Mhairi over at the West Virginia state or some other historically black college or university where that camera those cameras are becoming increasingly diverse or shall I say non-black or less African-American populations and so African-Americans are being denied a domination of their own. Historically Black Colleges and Universities. And then being denied admission to the top White law schools. Which brings me to my next question. If the president as has been said here wants it both ways. Meaning he wants to hold on to his conservative base on the one hand and on the other hand demonstrates sensitivity towards African-Americans and Hispanics. How many Hispanic and African-American supporters do you think he's picking up on the basis of this decision. I doubt that he's picked up by anything more than on the basis of this decision here he only solidified his base. That's about well are reasons for the answer got where it is this is zero. And that's what many people believe there are that even white affirmative action sought to do it is not done even on college campuses. And so many people would like to see something

that really first of all I think we all really tell the truth. These programs came about to try to rectify our heart that went on in this nation our heart committed against African-American race. We need to address the horror and the repercussions of that. And I'm afraid that's going to have to be the last comment on this issue. Thank you all for joining us. Where and why the incidence of HIV and AIDS is rising. It may be closer to home than you think. We'll be right back. Welcome back. New data from the Kaiser Family Foundation and the National Alliance of state and

territorial AIDS directors provide compelling evidence that we are living in the epicenter of the HIV epidemic in America. Correspondent George Strait has this report. Safe sex is really about responsibility. You're responsible not only to yourself personally have sex. Get used to seeing these ads. They're part of an unprecedented global media campaign to combat HIV AIDS that began this week. Senos half of new HIV infections happen to people under 25. So she always uses protection to you. It's a 120 million dollar effort designed by the Kaiser Family Foundation and leader in health information and research and the media conglomerate Viacom's that owns MTV BPT CBS and hundreds of other media outlets. We're doing it not using protection. What was your excuse for. That one.

The campaign will include billboards specials and HIV segments within hit TV shows why this campaign and why now. Because this is all too familiar on this spreadsheet the results from an HIV blood test. It's positive. Once again a counselor has to tell a patient they are infected with the virus that causes AIDS. He felt a lot of guilt a lot of shame a lot of embarrassment about that. And a lot of fear. Dr. Tim Price specializes in treating people with HIV. On one level he's a smart man knew what not to do knew how to protect himself. It wasn't a lack of information but did act. In ways that put himself at risk and came in feeling a lot of fear about that. We are 21 years into the AIDS epidemic and the number of new cases is on the rise again 40000 last year. And the District of Columbia is the epicenter of where the epidemic is growing the fastest.

The south the AIDS rate currently in the District of Columbia per 100000 people is 12 times the national average one in 20 adults in the district is infected with HIV and 33 percent of those who are infected are unaware and untested. The epidemic is raging in D.C. and the 10 states in the south because HIV increasingly has become a crisis in black and brown communities. As of 2000 we had had seven hundred seventy five thousand cases of AIDS reported to the CDC. And of that totaling 56 percent of the total were blacks and Hispanics. And this has relevance to what's happening in the south. Seventy eight percent of the women. Who were infected were blacks or Hispanics and related to that of course 79 percent of the heterosexuals. And 82 percent of children more than half of the victims are under the

age of 25. Dr. Pryce remembers a 20 year old who you saw just before Christmas. He took it very hard. And you know said things like you know I have my whole life to live. Why did I put myself at risk. I knew not to do this. You know a lot of self blaming kind of things. And I don't believe that he should be necessarily to blame but what I sort of thought is as a society you know how are we to change the behavior. They keep the 20 year old from putting themselves at risk for this disease. After so long a kind of AIDS fatigue has set in. I think people are just exhausted thinking about AIDS dealing with it thinking about how it relates to their children to their families to their friends and just don't want to have to deal with the issue at all.

For young people people in their late teens early 20s is someone that this disease is their parent's disease or that's not really their generation that experienced the brunt of this disease as far as the death rate and the infectivity rate has been high. There's a difference between having a lot of people infected and seeing a lot of friends and colleagues die and those people are taking greater risk. Ironically the new drug combinations that have dramatically reduced the death rate from AIDS and allowed millions to live more normal lives have caused people to lower their guard. Unfortunately that good prognosis are the good treatment available. Has it made some people less fearful of this disease and has increased their risk taking behavior to catch HIV in some old prejudices continue to stymie prevention efforts.

We have to change the environment and that's not easy. We have to change the environment so that people are comfortable and even safe feel safe being tested and finding out the positive and then being open about it enough to get the services they need. Sisters here's somebody you want to stay away from. I look safe. Don't knock these new messages are part of that effort. Messages of hope that emphasize that AIDS is a totally preventable disease. He's one in a million. Make sure he's winning. Fifty one in 50 African-American men may be HIV positive. Text him. Check out yourself. My dad does say a campaign that veteran AIDS caregivers hope could put them out of business. We would vaccinate people with education. They wouldn't catch the disease and I wouldn't have anything to do. But that has not been the case. You know unfortunately I'm seeing more patients coming through. I'm able to offer them therapy but I shouldn't be seeing them at all on one level.

George Strait joins us now. Always good to see you. Good to see you too. One thing is that when one has been covering health issues the way in which you have that it's probably very difficult to surprise you. Was there anything surprising to covering this story. Well I wish I could say that I was shocked. But we as a people have denied this epidemic. It was such a long period of time and also disproportionately we have less access to health care. That's really a lot of the reasons why the AIDS epidemic is so rare among black folk. Also with us now is Jennifer Kates who authored the Kaiser Family Foundation study. Good to have you here. Cornelius Baker is also with us Cornelius is the executive director of the Whitman-Walker Clinic on it. OK it's allow me to get back to you. The Kaiser Family Foundation recently reported on the extent of the HIV epidemic in the south. Why is it going so fast here. And could you tell us a little bit about the summit you held recently on that subject.

And so we were concerned about the impact of the epidemic in the south. We felt that it was a region that hadn't received much attention in terms of the epidemic. And we looked at the data and what we found is that the South is a region of the country and the South is 16 states in the District of Columbia. So we found that the South had the greatest number of people living with AIDS the greatest number of new AIDS cases. And that in fact that the proportion of people living with AIDS in the South was increasing over time and trends that were stabilizing or decreasing other parts of the country were actually increasing in the south. Part of that is explained by the South is a large part of population in this country but not all of it. And so we wanted to look more closely at what was happening and we decided to summit it was a good way to address that to bring people together from communities in the south at the federal state local level. Community organizers as well and we brought people together in Charlotte North Carolina to look at the epidemic in the south and to begin to address some of the challenges and

barriers and reasons why the epidemic may be on the rise in the south and there were many stigma. There is a large proportion in the south as rural there's access to care issues. So now those were all identified Cornelius I know it's not surprising to you. The epidemic has changed. Talk a little bit about messages do we need more of them do we need different ones. What about prevention. Well we need a lot of different messages. I want to first talk about the people who are coming to our clinics who have AIDS not people who are simply HIV positive but in fact people who've clinically progress to AIDS. All of these new AIDS cases are in fact a failure of the healthcare system. We have treatment. We have clinics and we have services that can keep people healthy. So when someone comes to us with an AIDS diagnosis it means that they didn't seek early care or they didn't have access to early care. And we see that particularly in southern areas and

rural areas in poor places like the District of Columbia and in minority populations that are still so disenfranchised from the health care system. But we also need the early message. We need the message that HIV is preventable. We need people to know that using a condom is an effective intervention. Right now the administration seems to be at war with using condoms and we have to change that mindset or we're not going to have people taking effective action new messages Kornelius mean new money. If in fact you get to get new messages are you concerned that given the current deficits locally and nationally there won't be enough left over for HIV prevention. Well we have to have priorities in our country. HIV is one of the leading causes of death is still the leading cause of death for African-Americans in the prime of their lives. And I think that we have to look at how do we value these communities certainly in metropolitan areas like Washington or Richmond or Baltimore caring about the lives of poor people of African-American and Latino kids has to be on the radar screen it

has to be at the top of the political agenda and we all have to work to make that. So there's enough money in this country. We just have to decide what the priorities are are the tax cuts. Are they providing healthcare to our citizens. And but we can't say that we're not the wealthiest country in the world and that we don't have the resources available to us. Jane about messages though in your research is there any any evidence that folks just haven't been paying attention to messages and the messages that are out there just sort of turned it off. I think we're 21 years into the epidemic and it is a crisis in many ways in this country and certainly around the world. But it's hard to sustain that level of attention. We do see in survey after survey that the level of personal concern that people may become infected is somewhat on the decline. And I think we do need to keep putting out new messages there particularly with new generations of teens every single year we need new messages to reach those teens every year. Cornelius with the epidemic becoming increasingly black and brown and also moving into

into the folks who abuse drugs could that mean these are disappearing turns folks these are folks who at best who've been considered to be on the margin could that effect. While it does affect funding. I mean here in the District of Columbia for example Congress has restricted our ability to do needle exchange programs. We're the only community in the country just restricted from using our own local funds to do needle exchange programs and there are a hundred and nine around the country. And I think it's because not only is the district denied voting representation but it's also who the people here are. That is easy to get away with. And I think that we have to change that mindset. I also think that we need to see more engagement of other leaders not just political leaders but by the media what Viacom is doing is incredibly important and especially because television is the medium that really does reach into these homes and you know you mentioned who these people are.

We can expand that internationally. Jennifer Kates let's think globally. Remind us about the AIDS devastation in Africa. Tell us where the next conflagration is likely. I'm always hesitant to remind us about it because the numbers are so overwhelming and there's 42 million people estimated to be living with HIV around the world most of whom are in developing countries and most of whom are in sub-Saharan Africa. It's the leading cause of death in Africa and that's it's a continuing challenge for the United States and for all of us really. And there's concern now because the next wave of countries those countries that right now do not have raging epidemics but could are just just around the corner and that's China India Ethiopia countries that have large populations and have not yet really stepped up to address the epidemic. They're beginning now they're not really prepared at this point those countries some of them are beginning to there's been some attention to this that we know that prevention makes a difference in that prevention early can make a difference. So there's been increasing attention and they're beginning to. So we're hopeful that they will. Of course the media has played an awful lot of protection to the global epidemic the global

pandemic in some sort of ironic or maybe even perverse way. There's the attention internationally cause folk in the United States to think that the epidemic here has waned. There's not that much of a problem. So they don't need to be concerned about it. I think that plays a role. People are becoming more aware of the global epidemic but not remembering that the epidemic is still continuing here and how it affects them personally and you know I was saying this that every AIDS cases a failure of our system and we're still seeing AIDS cases in fact maybe a slightly trend on the on the rise and death rates are not decreasing like they were so people are not focused on that. And we're hoping that the Viacom initiative for example will raise awareness and can release one more time and a medical breakthrough in her eyes. Well we hope that there is a vaccine but I think that the most important thing that we need is education. We need remembrance. We need vigilance and we need prevention. One thing that you mentioned earlier is that our communities have been in denial. And there's

a consequence to that too. A decade ago there were only 7 percent of the cases in Washington were women. Today they're a quarter of the cases. And that's a result of our failures in prevention. We know that prevention works. And we just have to be committed to it. And of course the the most important element of prevention is basically knowledge. And for those people who are young and may not be up on it I need to go back to some basics before we go how HIV is spread. No toilet seats no mosquitoes. How is it spread that HIV is not spread through casual contact although people still kind of think that HIV is spread through sexual contact sexual intercourse or oral sex risk through blood through semen through sharing needles but not through casual contact. How would you assess the effectiveness of the conference you recently held in Charlotte North Carolina. I think one way is people are starting to talk about it and we're seeing that we're talking about it we've seen others talk about it. We're hoping that that will cause the states themselves to begin to implement more programs

to address it. So that is in many ways just a start. I think it's just a start. Thanks to all of you for joining us. Our thanks to all of our panelists for joining us. But most of all thanks to you for watching. Stay well. Goodnight