Evening Exchange; Native American Civil Rights

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. . . . . . . . . . . Stephen Watt is Seneca, he is an associate of the Morning Star Foundation. Good to have you here. Thank you. Morning Star Foundation is a Native American group that opposes the celebration of Columbus Day. Also with us is Chief Billy Kayak of the Piscatoe Indians. Chief Kayak is the National spokesman for the League of Indignant Sovereign Nations. Good evening to you both gentlemen. When this commemoration was held 100 years ago in 1892, it was a whiz-bang celebration. Everybody referred to it as a discovery. However, 100 years later, nobody it seems wants to use toward discovery publicly and everybody is cautious about the use of the word celebration. What's happened in the last 100 years? Well, we don't see there's a celebration. There's been a lot of propaganda taught to children since day one of the schools.

The lives start when they say Christopher Columbus discovered America. I like the point out at the time of contact. Then in the Americas, there was an estimated over 100 million Indian people. They tried to use the word tribes to make us primitive people. But in the Americas at that time, there were cities, civilizations and these cities supported over 225,000 people, whereas at the time of contact, Paris was the greatest city in Europe that only supported 15,000. It wasn't the discovery what it was, was an invasion. And since that time, they've embarked on a policy of genocide towards the native people of the Americas. Well, about 18 years ago, I was interviewing Russell Means of the American Indian movement and he on this very weekend. And he began by saying when we discovered Columbus, he was lost, we knew exactly where we were.

And therefore, if there was any discovering that took place, it was we who discovered Columbus. Let me correct the name of your organization. You are, it is the indigenous. The indigenous sovereign nations. I felt that indignant could be a term that could be used. This is the outgrowth of the American Indian movement. It's a step up. What it is basically is that Columbus's legacy to us is that he took us out of mankind as equal. And what we're seeking today in the 20th century, going into the 21st century, we're seeking parity in mankind. And one of our goals is to achieve a seat, a voice, and a vote at the United Nations. You see them even recognize us as a separate distinct people. They see us basically as cultures within countries. Mr. Watt, the issue I raised earlier had a lot to do with the fact that it seems that over the past 100 years,

a lot more Americans have come to realize that the legacy of Christopher Columbus can be seen from two sides. In the past, it was being taught here as if people here were living in Europe. Now it's being taught or people are learning about it a little more from the point of view of the Native Americans, and later we'll talk about the Africans. In 1892, there were less than 250,000 Native people living in the United States at that time. So it was not surprising that in 1892, a celebration was able to take place. But now we are in 1992. There are nearly 2 million of us in the United States. And we've slowly come to realize, come to accept, to re-embrace our own culture and our own people, our own histories, which were, in many cases, denied to us.

We were reprimanded for even considering being a part of our own culture again. But now we are finding a new resurgence in our own identity, which also empowers us to let others know who we are. And it brings us around to today. And of course that has been led by Native Americans, but I get the impression that it has been picked up on by other progressive groups around the country, including members of the African-American community, members of the Women's Movement, and others who are now saying, look, let us for a change, tell the truth about Columbus, and not keep telling the myths that we have been telling so far. And it seems that all of those things together have now got even the organizers of these commemoration occasions. A little queasy about how they describe Columbus at this point. But what they do say is, look, these two continents at some point had to come together. This encounter they say, this encounter was bound to occur.

So let us just commemorate the fact that it occurred. What do you say about that? It did occur. It was inevitable to occur, but it did not have to happen the way it did. Millions of Native people lost their lives. Hundreds and thousands of tribes have disappeared. There could have been a much more positive and different way to have an encounter than what did occur. So that is my response. They use the word gentle encounter. To describe the encounter, that's the philosophy in the pitch that's coming out of Europe. I'd hate to see what the brutal encounter was of this was a gentle encounter. I'd like to know what a conquistador is. But they said the encounter had to occur. I would just like your view of that, especially why did it have to occur by Europeans coming here, why could it not have occurred by Native Americans at some point going to Europe? That could have happened.

That's just theory. We're talking reality. We're talking a group of people that left their countries and came in massed our country. And one time a great Indian leader of this century told me his name was Philip Deere. He said to only crime that we committed that we were where the Creator put us at, and they wanted our land. And that's basically it. Well, you have to also tell our viewers what it was that Columbus encountered. People tend to believe that what Columbus encountered when he came here was a group of extremely primitive people who had no culture to speak of and who had not been here for that long as far as he was concerned. What did he encounter? As Mr. Tyak mentioned, you know, mass cities of huge populations. Mr. Columbus encountered confederacies of tribes living in democracy long before it was even thought of in Europe and living. And now there's increasing evidence that those people were here long before

there were thought to be here thousands of years ago. That's right. So he encountered civilizations. What kind of life did he encounter? At the point out the fact that he encountered civilizations that out rivaled anything in Europe at that time. The pyramids of Egypt's parallels, the pyramids of Mexico. Engineering feats where the roads today are still being used at the Aztecs built in Mexico. You know, aqua fears that they had developed surgeons that they had developed. They had a civilization, but yet they tried to put on over the point is that we were nothing but savages. You see one point that you have to understand. The point is this. Our crime was there was no accountability for us in the Bible. That is the crime. And they had to decide whether or not we were humans or not. And since we weren't Christians. Mr. Watt. Both Chief Kayak and Mr. Watt, there are probably people watching this right now who say

they are exaggerating why I have seen literally hundreds of movies that showed me very clearly how the Native Americans used to live before we got here. What is this? They're talking about great civilizations and cities that were larger than cities in Europe. It brings to mind the last of the Mohicans the current film out. Which I haven't seen, but go ahead. I went to see it and I was completely appalled at the representation of Native people that film gave. It showed the French and the British involved in a civilized war. With the Native people, the Native savages carrying out the dirty deeds. And that is what has been perpetuated throughout the media in various forms for centuries. For decades. And that is what America has come to expect. For example, America thinks we are or we were.

And only now are we starting to see an opportunity to start changing this. Those people who would defend Columbus say that when he got here while it is true that a lot of those things existed, the cities existed, the art and the culture existed. That in fact there were some kinds of rituals that were still practiced here, such as human sacrifice and very bloody rituals and very bloody wars that took place between tribes. So it is wrong to paint it as if it was a kind of human paradise that existed here. What would you respond? I would say we are human names. Everybody has their problems. But I also like to point out, if you look at the history of them since they have been here, they can show 50 years of peace. They are warring people. And talk about savagery, they were the ones who burned people at stake. They were the ones who put people who said that the son was the son of the world. They called him a heretic and imprisoned him for the rest of his life.

They had a close mind. And this was their main problem. There had to be a lot of years when you had to sit by and watch this celebration take place without the opportunity to speak out publicly against it in the way that you are now or in the way that you have been for the past several years. How did you feel during that time? How did your people feel during that time? I don't know. At one time it was kind of accepted, not accepted, but just go along with the flow. And there was nothing we could do about it. But as you mentioned that it reminds me of a experience I had in fifth grade, in which in the social studies class they were teaching us U.S. Indian relations. And in this particular class they were showing us a film where Calgary had invaded a native village and proceeded to kill every member that was there.

And this is in fifth grade. And I remember the rage and anger that I felt. But there was nothing I could do about it. Were you able to speak out at that time? No, I wasn't. You could always expect some kind of reprimand either from the classroom teacher or wherever. At that time were you learning an entirely different story within the context of your own family and people? That's right. You were learning. There was a great deal of conflict between what I was being taught in school, what my parents, my grandparents, my great grandparents experienced in their own acculturation into a white society. He just mentioned a movie that was recently made. The last of the Mohicans and that is supposed to be a movie that's made in this newly sensitive period where people are supposed to be more understanding and it is still offensive. What hope do you have that your true story will ever be told in the popular culture, in the movies and novels that people read and in the school books that children read in this country?

We've been educated now. That's one thing that's occurred. I like the point out that everybody believes the history of America started in 1492 and that's a lie. You know, that's a lie. When do your people counted as having started? I was taught when I went to school that we'd only been here 10,000 years and today they pushed it back to 65,000 years. I believe the Creator put us here in the beginning and we are separate distinct people. I like the point out the majority of people see us as a relic. They discriminate very heavily against the Indian people. In this city, you've got a football team called a Washington Redskins. Nobody cares. They walk around hats, red skins. That's a very derogatory name. They see Indians as a relic, something in the past. Look at that while and then. You're on an Indian if you don't have a feather in your head or you don't live in a teepee. What do you think is going to be done?

What do you think will ever be done to change that? The movement started in 1970 as an A movement. As they taught pride and race and I was one of those people that called a new Indians. And we taught our people it's okay to be an Indian. Stand up for who you are. Don't let them push you around. Be proud of it. We went into the prisons where they only had three races, black, white, and other. They used to everybody who wasn't black and white until the other. We didn't even know how many people there were in presence. We didn't even know how many Indians there were in a lot of part of this country. Because they were classified as other. What's different nowadays of course is that when the Washington Redskins play, especially in big games like the Super Bowl Native Americans and their supporters do turn out to protest that name. And there has been an outcry in this city from a lot of people calling for a change of name of that football team. And there are those who at this point are certain that that will occur. But that is only symbolic. What we need to be talking about is what will happen in realistic terms for Native Americans. Please allow me to have our viewing audience join this discussion.

Thank you for waiting, caller. It's your turn. You're on the air. Go ahead, please. Hello, yes. I would like to say good evening and first of all, could you elaborate more since they don't acknowledge themselves as being black? They do not say that. Can they elaborate more on the African and their input in their society? Because we left some minutes, let's say, physical like we did in Egypt, March on our contribution, our contribution. What we gave to them, too. Indeed, in our next segment on this program, we'll be talking to African Americans and they will be making a very distinct connection between the Africans who were brought here as slaves and the Native Americans who already existed here, but our current guests are welcome to speak to this. I like to say something. There's this item that's called soul food that's people in this country. It's basically barbecue meat and yams and cornbread and greens. That's Eastern Native American food, which the Indian people gave to the runaway slaves. Because we don't need a law, a piece of paper to tell us that all men are created equal.

We've got eyes, we can see that everybody is equal men and women. All different colors in them. Doesn't make a better difference. So you never recognize the concept of other people as being slaves. No. It's impossible. Because you see the democracy was born in this country. But in Europe at that time, there was nothing but kings and queens. And the Europeans have just basically went all over the world. They are the problem in my mind. They've been everywhere causing problems. And it's time now for people of color to stand up and start correcting them. Let's go back to the cell phone. Call it to your turn. You're under your go ahead, please. Good evening. I lament what has happened to the Native Americans. What I want to know is what do you call yourselves? Do we have to use the word American? Do you keep your language alive? I need to know what the word is. What do you call this place? We call America. What do you call yourselves instead of Indian? What should I say?

Instead of America? What should I say? And what did you think of dances with wolves? Right now we just moved from American Indians into Native Americans. And Native is a very good word. It means it implies belonging or first to whatever area. And we're starting to see more Native people. And with the language question, I myself cannot speak my language because at that time, not many people my age or much older than me could speak it. And the parents were not involved in trying to teach because that was not the way to go. And fortunately, my parents, my grandparents, can speak the language and are now starting to turn back around and realize that the language has to be perpetuated.

And the younger children are starting to learn in schools. And I come from an Eastern tribe, so that makes it much longer contact where you find in the Western tribes, you find younger people that speak the language. Our call is said, why do you call yourselves Americans? And I did not want to interrupt her because I think I understand that a lot of people, particularly black people, associate the word American with a word that white people have co-opted for themselves and see it in a negative way and would want to know why you would call yourself that color these might be the only people who have the ultimate right to call themselves Americans because they were here first. They like the word, engage in it. That's who we are with the original people of this land. And usually he's a Seneca, and I'm a Piscataway. That's what we list ourselves as. Color also wanted to know what you thought about the movie, dances with wolves. Movie, I really enjoyed the movie. It had a lot of bad parts of it, but what I'd like to say

is the same people who saw those Lakota Indians, how magnificent they were in that movie. Their descendants today are prisoners of war still. Where they live at when the Pine Ridge Reservation, the water they drink from the aqua fear, is radio active from the milltillings that was dumped on their land, uranium milltillings, and has the radio activity has leaked into the aqua fear. And there's severe cases of people's hairs falling out and blisters on their bodies, still births, miscarriages, and United States won't do anything about it. I want to bring this back to Columbus because Susan Harge of the Morning Star Foundation has written that it began of course with Columbus and continued when his legacy was the breaking of all of the treaties with the indigenous people of this country as you call yourselves. But now you are in a country where you are in a position of relatively small power. Of course there are people who will argue that the power should always be with the people.

But you have to deal with the power structure as it currently exists. How do you make the American power structure answer to the dire needs of the Native people? Well first of all, we're not a small people. In the United States, due to the genocide that was committed on us, there's only two million of us. But that's what we're about, the League of Indigenous sovereign nations. We believe that we're one people that stretch all away from the tip of Alaska to the tip of South America, many nations but one people. All people have 150 to 200 million of us in this hemisphere, but we're not recognized as a people, and we don't have a voice or a seat or a vote. We're going to the United Nations October 12th and demanding a parity in mankind. That's what we're about. We want to remain Indigenous people, whether we speak English, Spanish, Portuguese, French, or our Native language. We've got to come together as a people to survive, and that's what we're about.

Back to the telephone. Call or it's your turn, you're on the air. Go ahead, please. Yeah, I'd like to say good evening to everyone on the panel, and I just wanted to know if there's any good library or museum in the metropolitan area that one could go to find out more about Native Americans. That's a good question. I suspect that the Morning Star Foundation can probably provide you with a book list of books that you might want to find. You may not be able to find them in your local library, but the foundation would probably be able and willing to assist you to find the kind of literature. That's right. If you're interested in current literature, there's a new resurgence of Native writers currently available in their bookstores. You have to really search for them, but they're wonderful fiction, novel stories, and some of them are today, some of the leading writers today. Ward Churchill, the heck of a writer, you know? Well, no, no, let's do.

Is a tremendous writer. Like I said, the truth is emerging today. We have people who are writers. We have people who are artists. We have people who are scientists. We have people who are diplomats, but people don't see us as that, because what they try to see us and picture us as a relic, something in the past. Like she mentioned on the caller mentioned, what museum can I go to see in Indian? Well, I would point out what museum can I go to see in African or European. We're living people. That's what we're trying to emphasize. If she wants to see it, go to a reservation where the people are. And then there's the National Museum of the American Indian, which there's no building at this time, but it's still in the development stage. And so hopefully within this decade, there will be a good opportunity. That's one of the things that Suzanne Harjo was very instrumental in having developed here. That's right. Back to the telephone caller, you're on the air. Go ahead, please. No, I just wanted to let you know that there was African people over here before Columbus came over here.

If the only thing Columbus did, they did do was bring more about African people over here, and that there was three ships that he still in whatever name would seize you. I just wanted to let wonder, did you know anything about the name he's you? And he's your name with Jesus, the one that we call Jesus, and I just wanted to let you know, what would you tell the people on the telephone people now? Thank you. Okay, thank you very much. There will be a conference here at Howard University in November, at which the author Ivan Van Sertima will speak. He wrote the book, they came before Columbus, and it talks about the travels of Africans to the Western world long before Columbus got here. The difference between those travels and Columbus is that Columbus's was an invasion followed by a conquest, and it wasn't a mirror encounter. Then the Washington Redskins were playing here, and there were Native Americans protesting against it. Somebody found Native Americans someplace who said we didn't object to it, and I am fully expecting that there will be some Native Americans that somebody will find someplace

who will say we don't object to Columbus day, we object to Columbus bashing, we don't participate in Columbus bashing. Where does that come from? That comes from a culture that teaches us that what we are and who we are is not right, and that's okay to accept everything that we've been taught to this day, and unfortunately those people are available for such token uses, but hopefully now there's not as many as there used to be. Even Jesus Christ had his duties. What do you plan to do about this Columbus day in addition to going to the United Nations in October? Well, we've been on going for five years with the Listen Project. I've got toys outgrowth of the American Indian Movement, and that we're organizing our people into a power structure. We have to empower ourselves.

We're looking for sovereignty means you're sovereign people, and that's what we are, and that's what we intend to remain. We want to remain the people, that's very important. You see, the governments, their theory is they want to assimilate us, but I like to explain just people. Total assimilation to us is extinction. Indeed, we've come to the end of this segment. I couldn't come to the end of it without reenvoking the name of Russell Means and without mentioning the name of Leonard Peltier who is considered by Amnesty International, and it seems just about everybody else besides the government, a political prisoner in this country. Up next, an African and Asian perspective on Christopher Columbus. Stay with us. Thank you. Thank you.

Thank you. Thank you. Welcome back, joining us now with a look at Christopher Columbus

and his impact on Africans and Asians is Jerome Scott. Jerome is the director of Project South, which is an educational institute that brings scholars and grassroots organizers together in hopes that the scholars can help clear away some of the obstacles the grassroots organizers face. Good to have you here. Thank you. Also with us is Phil Tajisud Nash, the author of Columbus in context. Good to have you, sir. And Arthur Krebs, Jr., who is the secretary for minority constituency development and recruitment for the United Church of Christ.

But to have you all here, let's start with you. You have a unique town meeting planned. Over the issue of Columbus, and I would not bring that up usually until later, but I think it can help to shed some light on the topic we're now about to describe. Tell us about that town. It's scheduled for November 24th at 1 o'clock in the afternoon. That's Tuesday before Thanksgiving in Westminster, Maryland at Western Maryland College. Dr. Ivan von Serdoma will be a part of a panel that includes Suzanne Harjo, Roberto Maestis from Seattle, Ron Mustow, who's an Italian Catholic, Robert Grossman, who is Jewish, and also Mililani Trask, who is a native Hawaiian. We bring those voices together along with William Lauren Katz, the writer of the Black West and the Black Indian. We bring them together because the perspectives that they will help to share will help us to reach at the question after 500 years what have we learned. There's been a lot of rhetoric, a lot of discussion,

but what have we learned from all of this, and how do we move forward? And this will include people who oppose any commemoration of Columbus Day, people who have traditional celebrations of Columbus Day, and people who are all somewhere in between. That's right. The important thing is that we not only look back. Columbus is dead, and I'd like to say gone, but unfortunately the legacy lives in our behavior. So what we want to do is look at how did we come to know what we think we know. How do we incorporate that into the classroom and continue it generation after generation? But more importantly, how do we break the cycle? How do we look toward the 21st century and 500 years hence and begin to think differently and relate differently? And one of the obvious results of Columbus's trip is the fact that you and I are sitting here talking to each other right now. It has been said that not only did Columbus's trip here result in slavery, but it initiated a European campaign around the world that resulted in the colonization

of Africans in Africa and left many of them in the same situation that many black people here find ourselves in today. Could you expand on that, Mr. Scott? I think it was 1495 on Columbus's second voyage to this hemisphere that he brought some African slaves that had been taken to Portugal, taken from up to Portugal from West Africa. And yes indeed, I mean the thing that I think we a lot of times miss is that the encounter with this hemisphere of Columbus really did set forth the whole transatlantic slave trade which saw up to 50 million Africans lost to the continent. 50 million African people lost when only 15 million actually made it here as slaves. So 35 million died in the transport from rebaling on the ships to diseases to in many cases starving themselves to death to prevent their enslavement.

You write about Columbus in context. Could you explain what that means? Well, I've been writing and speaking around the country three years ago I was working with a group called the National Coalition of Education Activists and we started thinking as teachers what we needed to do to bring a different perspective into the schools and we saw that religious activists and community activists in particular the Native American community was gearing itself up to talk about these things. And so we did a lot of learning and a lot of writing and ultimately booklet call, Columbus was put out by a question. Let me take the opportunity right now to show our viewers exactly what that booklet looks like it is called rethinking Columbus and this is it's being used in some 18 school districts around the country at this point and I know 18 is not a very large number but I suspect those 18 may have been sufficiently hard to penetrate. Well over 200,000 copies of that have gone out because it has a resource list, it has a lot of other things and we've tried to bring in the authentic voices of Native American peoples

as well as people who have a critical perspective about what Columbus has done. So I've been one of many people who have been trying to write things for the schools and for people in churches and people in community groups helping us to rethink the way history is taught not just the history of Columbus but the way that we look at how people of color are portrayed, how women are portrayed, how people who aren't in the great man theory of history are portrayed. And I think that's what my writing and radio and other work has been about. What's been the reception of school districts, school boards, teachers and parents to that kind of work? Well it's amazing. Just this past week I was in Lincoln, Nebraska and I've been doing the speaking for over three years now and I went out to the school district and was talking at a university and I was amazed at the reception. There were 250 people who came out who listened who heard a critique of Columbus and heard a critique of the way that we look at the great white man theory of history. They didn't bat an eye. They said, gee where can we learn more? We like this. And this was a predominantly white audience? Predominantly white audience. And so I've seen a tremendous shift

in public perception over the past three years. It's like nothing else I've experienced recently. You do the same kind of thing for the United Church of Christ, is that not correct? That's right. We spend a lot of time with groups. My role is to help us listen to hear the stories of each other without blaming each other for it. I'm convinced that there is no innocent people in the United States. African-Americans have tremendous guilt in terms of our own complicity with oppression. Just recently, in Leavenworth, Kansas, Colin Powell helped to celebrate the Buffalo Soldier as a person who was born and reared in Los Angeles. I find it difficult to celebrate the Buffalo Soldier, particularly when we realized that, just as Chief Tyak said earlier, without Native Americans, many slaves would not have survived when they ran away. The story of Nat Turner, for example, is a clear example of how, through the communities of Native Americans, across the Mississippi, Eastward and Westward, Africans were able to escape and be free. So, we need to hear the voices of others. In 1972, I had my first opportunity

to go to an Indian reservation. For six weeks, I was rejected because they weren't sure if I could be trusted because of the color of my skin. I went as a journalist, which was strike two. The history of African-Americans toward the Native American community must be critically analyzed and we cannot go around blaming other people until we confess our own sins. The controversy or your refusal to celebrate the Buffalo Soldiers underlines the conflict of a people brought here as slaves and trying to find a way in this society to become treated as equals and maybe making the mistake of contributing to the oppression of another group of people but doing that process, showing what was felt to be a great deal of valor, how do you resolve that conflict? Well, I don't think it's a really, really a big conflict. I was reading this story of a regiment of soldiers in Louisiana that was volunteering to fight on the side of the Confederacy. It sort of gets me into this whole question

of multiculturalism. Each and every people is multicultural. It's not like they say multicultural means of black and white and a native. No, you can look within the African American people when you see multiculturalism. You also see different interests and those different interests make you act differently. I don't condemn the Buffalo Soldiers. African Americans fought in the Civil War. African Americans fought in the Great Revolutionary War. Indeed, I heard this great scholar Dr. John Henry Clark yesterday saying that quite a few of those African Americans fought on the side of the British because they thought they did. Because the British also fought on freedom. That's right. That's right. And so if you bring it up to today, I think that what we are witnessing with Cohen Powell on the one hand and say Jerome Scott on the other is a different class perspective. He's serving a certain class interest. But I think we must look at where we are today

because the legacy of Columbus has not been broken, the mentality which has been instituted in this country, not only are the Buffalo Soldiers worth looking at and critiquing again, but we must look at our military operations around the world today. What are the attitudes in the African American community that justify our participation in Iraq, our participation in Grenada, our participation in Panama, our presence in South Korea? How do we begin to analyze what it means to be the children of those who suffered slavery and oppression in this context and then participate on the side of the oppressor against men and women, boys and girls around the world? It's a difficult one because we want to be accepted, but we want to be accepted by the oppressor and have some sense of presence among ourselves with some dignity and integrity. To what extent are all of those things that he listed as the oppressive moves of the United States around the world, a part of the legacy of Christopher Columbus's encounter with this so-called new world? Well, everything he said is very true.

I think the legacy of Columbus has been one of environmental degradation coming in and starting to cut down trees and deal with other things that led to the wholesale destruction of rainforest and other things now, then in terms of the people coming in, treating them as second-class people, not just the native people he encountered, on his own ship, he was the captain. They were the sailors. Again, this hierarchy that Chief Taek was talking about before where we still have kings who were treated with special deference. And then that attitude towards people of color, their lands are not worth anything that they don't deserve their own lands. We can go in and quote-unquote discover those lands. And so we can just take that. And the same type of thing we've done in the Middle East today, we go in and say, well, we'll take care of these people or we will take care of the resources on this land. It's a very patronizing attitude. What I'm trying to get at is the interconnectedness of things to what extent is Columbus and his invasion of this country responsible for the phenomena we now refer to as imperialism, colonialism, colonialism, and racism.

Let's call him the grandfather. I think one of the things that Columbus did was help to legitimize it. He promised reward to the crown and to the church. And unfortunately, again, the behavior has not been broken. Our mentality, our justification of it. Columbus simply represents and symbolizes, at this point, in our time, what has become a legacy of shame. As long as we continue to allow Columbus to be celebrated and lifted up with our full critique of the impact of his works and we continue to act similarly, I think we will be condemned. Let's go to the telephone. Thank you for waiting. Carlie, run the air. Go ahead, please. Yes. Hi. Good evening to you and your guests. I first have a comment and that comment is that I've read in the Washington Post that part of the impact of Columbus is that he came at the time he came during the West and European thought and all that. Was that an article by the ambassador from Italy? Yes, I do believe so.

Go ahead. My question is, your indigenous guests are not there, but my question is as far as American policy is concerned, the vote and paying taxes are very important. And I was wondering about, you have Asian-American guests and African-American guests, you don't have Hispanic-American guests, but as far as paying taxes and the vote, I'm concerned about what are the facts there as far as Native Americans are concerned. And also what do they think the impact will be as far as Native Americans paying taxes and also the vote? I am not sure that, well, I was about to say I'm not sure but we have a panelist who wants to address that. Well, part of what Chief Tyak has written in rethinking Columbus and what I've heard him say before is that in 1920 and 1922 they were referend as sponsored by the United States government to try and see what Native Americans thought about becoming American citizens

and they overwhelmingly voted no. Then in 1934, with the, I think it's a Howard Act, they were made citizens and these corporations were set up on their various tribal ancestral lands and they were allowing the United States government was allowing one person, one sell out person to right away the mineral rights to their lands. And so theoretically, Native Americans are American citizens but a lot of them still respect the elders in their own groups and although many Native American people, for example, have fought valiantly for the United States Armed Forces overseas, part of that is because they don't have a lot of other jobs or higher rates of unemployment on the Native American reservations. But let me get back to that article that our caller referred to because the ambassador from Italy said please try to see the Columbus encounter with America from a European perspective that Europe was in the dark ages at this point and Columbus was the original Renaissance man he believed in the ability of mankind to do anything he wanted to do. He had a will that couldn't be broken

and he was determined to accomplish what he had to accomplish and this helped to bring Europe out of the dark ages and things that Europe was able to get from the new world helped Europe to thrive and therefore you should understand it. Look, it just happened and we're all doing better as a result of it. Comment? Well, yes. I mean, that is very extreme. I mean, you think about the hundreds of years of genocide on the Native people. You think about the hundreds of years of slavery on African people that was the basis, the economic basis for all that wealth, you know, the so-called pool Europe out of the dark ages. We cannot look back at that and say, okay, we're better off now. No, that would be wrong because if we don't know our history and if we don't correct the historical record, we're doomed to repeat it over and over and over again as we are doing. I'm just thinking that if in fact what you're saying is that that commemoration legitimizes one group of people entering the territory

of another group of people stealing its wealth, becoming comfortable as a result of it or invading it and oppressing the people who lived their wiping the mud and becoming comfortable as a result of it, then who are we to condemn Saddam Hussein for going into Kuwait and trying to take over the oil wells? I think, again, in the United Church of Christ, we've called for a time of confession, a conciliation, repentance, and prayer and to suggest that coming out of the dark ages with murder and pillage, thievery and kidnapping as virtues and to say at the end of this, we, whoever the we are, are better off. Really means that we have a long ways to go towards salvation, redemption, and repentance. Back to the telephone. It's your turn, Collar. You're on the air. Go ahead, please. First of all, good evening to you, close your hand again. I'd like to make a comment on the fact that I think we need to be more aware of other history and things that we have contributed to the Western Hemisphere.

I've done a lot of reading. I've found where Africans as hard evidence that Africans were here actually in Central and South America as early as 900 BC. And I think things like that are what we need to be aware of when we discuss Columbus and all the credit he gets. Thank you. Well, at this point, I'd like to say that we are sponsoring a conference here at Howard University, November 13th through the 15th, entitled 500 Years of Resistance, the Columbus Legacy, and the African. One of the subjects that we're going to tackle is this little-known fact of African presence in Central and Latin America, as well as many others' questions that continue to be hidden from us. Like for instance, the whole story of the Indian nations in Florida, the Seminoles, in the fact that they were runaway slaves and run away native peoples that came together to create that nation. A lot of us don't know those stories,

so plan to come to Howard University at the Blackburn Center. And you'll get a telephone number for that conference at the end of this show. Let me go back to the telephone. It's your turn, caller. You're on the air. Go ahead, please. Good evening, co-jo, and good evening to your guests and to your guests who were there before. I'm in support of this particular program that you're broadcasting tonight. As an African descendant, I'm constantly seeking knowledge about my own heritage, and I'm glad that the truth is finally going to be heard. But I truly believe that white America, which that is that don't claim any particular ethnic group for pureness, will continue to try to put any race down that's different. And I truly believe that they will continue to try to do that and the truth will be hidden, but I support the gentleman that's talking about putting it in the school system because that's where the change has to begin. And as a daycare provider, I'm constantly trying to enforce the difference that's going on out there because I'm to be raising young black boys, and I feel that that's a great thing that he's doing now,

so keep up the good work. Everybody's got something to say about that. I think it's important, and I appreciate the sister saying that we must put this in the classroom. This year I've been in Ghana as well as Cuba, and it is important for African Americans to make the linkage. We need to understand Cuba. We need to understand why the United States has such a harsh attitude toward Cuban people. We also must begin to make the connection between slavery in the United States and the reality that the United States wants to make Cuba and Haiti slaves again. We need to make the connection. We also need to make the connection back to Ghana. We need to go beyond Gory Island in Senegal and understand, as Brother was talking about the 40 to 50 million people who were brought there. The people who were never replaced. We need to make the connections with the slave trade in Ghana that stole people from that nation, and those people continue to be needed there today.

As I said, everybody is that something to say, when I have to take a short break and come right back, and then everybody will have the opportunity to say it, and that includes you. And with us, we'll be right there. The phone number for rethinking Columbus can you still use it? Area code 202-429-429-0137.

Right. 202-490137. Good. Then you don't have to give it. They'll just put it up. I'll mention it. One minute. One minute. We're back with Jerome Scott of Project South,

Phil Tajitsunash, author of Columbus in context, and Reverend Arthur Kribs of the United Church of Christ, your turn, Phil. Well, I just wanted to say for the sister who wanted more information as a daycare worker or for anybody who's teaching in the elementary schools or secondary schools, or even if you're someone who wants to learn and you're not in an organized school. This rethinking Columbus is 96 pages. It's got a lot of resources and also articles. It also is available in Spanish. So for those of you who are working in a bilingual situation, those who are predominantly Spanish speaking, it's a wonderful resource. The number is up on the screen. It's 429-0137.

The network of educators in Central America, they with the rethinking schools collective out in Milwaukee, worked on this project. Yes. I really wanted to respond to the sister's question because one of the things that we were successful in in organizing for the Howard Conference in November was that the DC school system to endorse the conference. And they have pledged to bring 1,000 students to the conference that weekend. And we worked really hard on that because we know that if you don't start educating our kids, then we're not going to get into a position where we can change things. And that's the other thing the conference is about. It's really about gathering together a network of people that will continue to work together to educate ourselves and really fight the change things. Well, President Bush is still in the White House and if any of you watch the Republican National Convention, you will have seen a succession of speakers who said we object to this new multiculturalism, we object to people having our children try to unlearn everything they have learned before that has brought us

to where we are as a society. What do you think about that? You guys have a very, very difficult battle ahead. People feel they have been prosperous in this country. And the reason they've been prosperous is because of the things that we've been taught, including the things they've been taught about Columbus. White poll him now. And wreck the culture. Let's look at the society and let's see what we are. We have more people going to prison than to universities today. We have more people going in the hospitals because of drug abuse and because of violence than we have attending schools across the country. We have more people with broken homes in this society. We have more people who do not have an understanding between men and women. The gender gap, if you would, is widening. The age gap is widening. People are concerned about their communities without recognizing the holistic society and its many ills. So as long as people are perpetuating the myth that yesterday is better than today or even tomorrow, we will continue to see an escalation of problems in the society. If you would like more information about the conference

500 years of resistance, the Columbus legacy, and the African Howard University, Blackburn Center, November 13th through the 15th. Okay, thank you very much. We've got to take a short break, but don't go away. We'll be right back. Thank you. That's it.

Our show for tonight. Our thanks to our guests and to you for joining us. Wish we could talk about this all night. But WHMMTV, as you know, is the only black-owned station in the public broadcasting system. On each night of the presidential debates, we are going to preempt the normal PBS analysis of these debates and bring you a unique and stimulating discussion of the event from an African American perspective. This will be the only coverage that will address the issues that affect the black community and allow you to call in your thoughts on the debate. We will be on the air from 630 to 930 each night of the debates, bringing you a pretty-based show, the actual debates, and then one full hour of discussion that includes you, the voters.

So each night that there is a presidential debate tune in here for a half-hour pre-show and an hour-long follow-up, three hours of presidential debate coverage from WHMMTV. The meantime from all of us to all of you, good night. Thank you very much.