On the Line; AIDS: WHAT'S NEW ON THE HORIZON THE INTERNATIONAL AIDS CONFERENCE 10:05 - 10:20 PRESTON WASHINGTON REVEREND DOCTOR, PASTOR OF MEMORIAL BAPTIST CHURCH OF HARLEM www.blca.org 212-614-0023 T

Buy reports the incident comes just as the city is trying to polish its image. Two weeks before it hosts the Republican National Convention. A videotape shot from a news helicopter shows a dozen plainclothes and uniformed officers surrounding the suspect on the ground and apparently kicking and beating him. Philadelphia Police Commissioner John Timoney cautions questions about police brutality are premature. Listen it's clear the videotape doesn't look good. But what I'm what I'm not going to do is rush to judgment based on videotape. We need to speak those officers what are they reacting to what are they hearing what are they saying. Germany says it's outrageous to compare a videotaped beating involving his officers to the Rodney King incident in Los Angeles. The district attorney's office will conduct its own inquiry. For NPR News I'm Dave Heller in Philadelphia. The hostages seized in Fiji is parliament building have been freed. The 18 were taken hostage more than seven weeks ago. Their release follows a deal in which the military agreed to scrap the country's multi-racial constitutional and Grant coup leader George Speight and his followers. Amnesty Speight is demanding more power for ethnic Fijians.

The powerful council of tribal chieftains is considering his demands as it meets to form a new government. Rescue officials at the site of a deadly mudslide in western India say that more than 50 bodies have been found. The number is expected to rise as more victims are found in the rubble. Singh has a report from New Delhi. The torrential rains that killed dozens of slum dwellers in an eastern suburb of India's commercial capital Bombay finally let up today. The dead include at least 11 women and 15 children. Rescue workers are going through the remains of several of the mud and huts which had been built illegally on public land and was swept away Wednesday when the Hill they were on collapsed. Schools and Colleges have been closed and offices have recorded low attendance. The less up in the weather has allowed local trains the city's lifeline to resume operations. The Met Office forecast like rain for the next 24 hours. For NPR News I'm Viers thing in New Delhi.

House Democrats failed yesterday and several hours of debate to win the money. President Clinton wants to help 40 of the world's poorest nations. Lawmakers ignore the veto threat and rejected an amendment of the foreign aid bill that would have added 390 million dollars over the next two years for an international debt program mostly in Africa. The action left the figure for third world debt at six to nine million dollars on Wall Street. The Dow Jones Industrial Average is up 23 points to ten thousand eight hundred six. Trading is light volume 124 million shares. The Nasdaq is up forty four and a half points to 41 44. This is NPR News. Support for NPR comes from data channel providing internet extra net and Internet portal solutions designed with XM Al technology data channel dotcom. This is WNYC am 820 and WNYC DRG at 10 0 4 79 degrees right now partly sunny skies over Central Park. It is going to be mostly sunny today with highs in the mid 80s. Good morning. I'm serious Johnson. A planned weekend block party is turning into a wake as neighbors in Burm Hill mourn

friends killed in a brownstone collapse. Searchers found three bodies yesterday after a painstaking search through the rubble two brownstones collapsed Tuesday night killing residents Leonard and Herriott wallet and Kai Cochran. The widows and families of 10 slain cabdrivers watched as Governor Pataki signed a bill into law seeking to curb violence against cabbie's. The new law adds three to five years to the penalties against anyone who attacks either a livery or medallion cab driver. The law also provides benefits of $20000 for the survivors of murdered livery drivers and up to $20000 for drivers who are assaulted on the job. New Jersey's a school construction proposal is up for a vote today assembly members must decide how much to spend on new buildings and expansions in urban and poor school districts. The total program could end up costing $15 billion with local funding and interest payments and appeals judge has blocked a temporary has blocked the temporary visitation order that would have allowed a woman to see two children she raised with her former partner the kids biological mother. The judge ruled the children might

be harmed if they see the woman now. And she ultimately loses her battle for permanent visitation rights. Federal health experts are coming to our area to review local strategies to fight the West Nile virus. So far this year 13 birds killed by the virus have been found. The disease is spread by mosquitoes and local pro-action. Tonight it's interleague play the Yankees host the Marlins and the Mets are at the Red Sox mostly sunny skies for today highs in the mid 80s right now 79 degrees partly sunny WNYC at 10 0 6. This is on the line. I'm Brian Lehrer. This year's International AIDS Conference in South Africa is producing some surprising headlines. The common spermicide minoxidil 9 may now be implicated in the spread of aids to some women. There was a time it was thought to be possibly protective the interest of South African President Mbeki and the theory that HIV may not cause AIDS is another

headline grabber. Some prostitutes in Kenya repeatedly exposed to HIV have been shown to be so immune to it that a new vaccine is about to be tested based on things and their biological profiles. We will go live to the conference in Durban to look behind that headline and talk to a developer of that vaccine in a few minutes. But while much of the focus is rightly placed on the pandemic levels of HIV in Africa a little told story right now is that African-Americans are now the group getting the majority of new AIDS cases in this country. My first guests an activist minister from Harlem and a Mother Jones reporter think that that fact is not being adequately addressed by the medical political or media communities. Rev. Dr. Preston Washington is pastor of the Memorial Baptist Church in Harlem. Jacob Levinson wrote about AIDS and African-Americans in the latest Mother Jones and is working on a book about the same topic. Jacob Levinson Reverend Washington welcome to on the line. Hello. I talk with you. Washington. How do you see the impact of AIDS in your congregation

and your community. Well in the first place AIDS is a very very critical issue for people at Memorial Baptist Church and also for the organization that I'm involved with and founded which is home congregations for Community Improvement and 90 churches in Harlem in the South Bronx. What we've discovered is the number of our own constituents our own members who have died because of the implications complications related to HIV AIDS. And beyond that just the whole pandemic that you mention has so inundated our community that whole families have been infected and affected and therefore it has really challenged us to become proactive in the struggle against AIDS mobilizing our local constituencies in the congregations and in the political community and also in the social services and care giving communities so that we can work collaboratively to make impact and to really try to

lower the incidences of AIDS infection in our community. I gather from his article that you think not only the federal government and other establishment organizations are not mobilized enough in this effort but you think that African-Americans at the grassroots level at the church level are also not sufficiently mobilized or not sufficiently aware. I think there's sometimes when you're dealing with something as devastating and as awesome as AIDS sometimes it takes people a while to wake up and smell the coffee. But the problem is that by the time you wake up smell the coffee you now operating in the wake of thousands and thousands of deaths. This is nothing play with this is a major crisis for the African-American community. One the number one person that is infected by AIDS now was a heterosexual woman. So we no longer can equate aids to a homosexual situation. But even if it were these are human beings

that also need the intervention of the medical and the other professional caregiving communities. But also babies in our community we are witnessing a whole scale of families where babies are impacted. Thank God many of them in the process of being born the AIDS virus somehow rather mysteriously miraculously is overcome. But by and large we still have a large number of babies but we also have in our community an African-American community senior citizens that's becoming an increasingly high high incident group and that's becoming very alarming to us because these are people that are retired and I presume that now they have free time and some resources and certain things are going on in unprotected sex that is calling for that particular problem. And also teenagers. So we're talking about a whole community that's at risk.

And this is an alarming reality for us in the church community. We have been slow but by the same token in Harlem we have been exceedingly proactive in fact Canon Frederick Boyd Williams the chairman of s.c.i is now in South Africa along with Vanessa Seale who's the founder of bombing Guiliano which was started in Harlem which is her attempt. And she's done a marvelous job of mobilizing congregations to address the issue of AIDS in the African-American community. This is on the line on A.M.A. 20 WNYC our first look at topics related to the International AIDS Conference and we will go live to there in South Africa in a few minutes. Is the spread of AIDS in the African-American community. Reverend Preston Washington pastor of the Memorial Baptist Church in Harlem one of my guests also Jacob Levinson who wrote about it in the July August issue of Mother Jones and we can take some of your phone calls from you personally affected or anyone else 2 1 2 2 6

7 WNYC that's 2 6 7 9 6 9 2. Jacob Levinsohn do you think the media focus on AIDS and white gay men has Haun the effort to fight AIDS in the African-American community or is it that all activism against AIDS is helpful to all those at risk and in fact it. Well I certainly think that all activism is. I think that activism is helpful and I and I certainly don't condemn anyone who has been an activist around AIDS. But I do think that the media focus on AIDS in the. In the gay white community has sort of framed the epidemic in the popular imagination as a gay white epidemic and as a consequence people don't think in the African-American community that it's that it's an epidemic that they're at risk for a virus that they're at risk for. It also has made it I think an unintended consequences been that the black church community because it has been because AIDS has been framed as a as a gay epidemic has it had a hard time dealing with this disease

and bringing it out into the open in the church. You are saying to me off the air before black church leaders also the NAACP has refused to own this issue. Is that your position. Well I wouldn't say the NAACP has refused to to own to own the epidemic. I would I would say that there is a lot of there's a lot of issues that there's so much stigma attached to to the epidemic that it's that there's certain political decisions that have to be kind of considered. I think that are at stake and saying things like do we want to bring more stigma onto people that have they're facing a ton of been stigmatized for 400 years that are already seen as highly as highly sexualized as drug users as poor as as unhealthy. And I think that that because AIDS is such a politicized sort of epidemic you have to be I think black leaders have been careful about how they've sort of

taken on the mantle over in Washington wanted to say Yeah I wanted to say that the NAACP black entertainment television. AT&T recently were mobilized by Julian Bond in order to deal with the issue of the black church. Addressing the issue of AIDS a new video has come out that's been distributed widely across the country to cable television network outlets call house on fire. And it is a really powerful video presentation of the mobilization of African-American congregations. I agree with Jacob Levinson completely in reference to the slow start of the African-American church and then the issues that cut across the whole HIV AIDS infection crisis. The one thing churches in general have a real difficult time dealing with human sexuality and we are really going to have to address the

issue because we are talking about a constituency even in the African-American community that gay lesbian transsexual etc.. We also have to address the issue of the number of young teenagers who are gay and according to the White House aides leadership they are contending that that whole population of young people because of the fact that there is been limited protective sex they may be wiped out completely. We are dealing with a major crisis that requires us to focus on these these these sub groupings in order to speak their language to deal with the reality of abstinence. Because the church community is exceedingly conservative theologically and where people are not prepared to abstain. Then we have to talk about protective sex because I tell the church community all the time.

Save a life and then you can save us so let us take a phone call at 2 1 2 2 6 7 WNYC 2 6 7 9 6 9 2 and Frank on the lower east side you're on the line. Gets credit for discovering HIV causes AIDS. I'm not sure that either of my guests are in the position to answer that question why do you ask. Well I'm looking at Kitteridge Ginsberg's inventing the AIDS virus right. One of the people who believes that HIV may not cause AIDS. Well not that it may not close right. He definitely he's been on this show. He definitely thinks that it doesn't. Yeah. And. He says in this book that Robert Gallo and Margaret Heckler announced that it was caused by HIV on April 23rd 1984 before any published

paper. Now this kind of science press conference the same kind of thing but Pons and Fleishman used to promote cold fusion. Right well we know that there is a competition between Dr. Gallo and a French researcher whose name escapes me to kind of rush to take credit for that. But I don't want to get into that whole discussion about whether HIV does or doesn't cause AIDS right now we've done that in depth on other programs and our time is short right now. But Reverend Washington let me ask you because that's been so much in the headlines coming out of South Africa because of President Mbeki Becky's interest in that theory. What's your reaction to that. Is that a distraction from the work that needs to be done. I want to understand why throw that kind of curve at a time when we have to really address the issue that AIDS exists. Now the ideology of AIDS the epidemiology of AIDS all of those really technical things. I know it sounds like I'm being blind to the reality but I really don't think that

that's the central issue. I think the essential issue now is here we have a situation of resource distribution that is definitely an equal. You're dealing with a government as powerful as the United States of America with an arsenal of research scientists and the United States of America in hard times can mobilize itself and really do some creative and dynamic things to create breakthroughs. Why there is no cure why there is no serum that has been developed yet. I am afraid that the resources will go into the research and to the ongoing process of trying to find solutions to the AIDS crisis. That's what we ought to be about when we deal with prevention issues. We ought to deal with care issues people in our community the African-American community around the world can they afford $30000 a year for protease inhibitors for the anti-viral medicines. Going back and forth to the doctor is an

expensive proposition. And unfortunately in the African-American community so many persons don't have adequate health coverage and therefore we're witnessing also a lot of deaths that's unnecessary. But because of the fact that you've had one group in the United States of America that has basically predominated to control of AIDS money the African-American community now which is the most impacted by AIDS has been lost in the sauce and that has to change and it has to change immediately. One more call. John pulled over in his car near the line. John you're on the line. Hi how are you. OK. I've been doing HIV prevention work for about 10 years now and you know even still when I when I start hearing that increase in the news coverage it's still very emotional for for everyone who has been around for a long time and a point that struck me you know in the opening comments from each of your day is the fear or the reticence of

the concern for getting involved with HIV in the congregations and in the community because of the stigma and the association with white homosexual men. And I think that the underlying paralleling social issue here is that you know there's a homophobia that is associated with talk about HIV on any level and you know for the first six seven eight nine years when when you have all that you heard about was gay men and drug users getting HIV this was not a big concern for a lot of communities and what's underlying here is why. Why wasn't it a concern and I heard your guest say that you know homosexual men are people and deserve the same treatment and the same access to medical care or whatever but this is it's almost like it's an afterthought after 20 years and has happened. Jacob Levenson Well one of the things that I think that Preston Washington has done and and he's going to need to be done is is certainly in the black community is is a real kind of welcoming of of gay men

and especially gay black men into the into the community into the church. I mean one of the things that I found in my research and that's been very disconcerting has been the fact that a lot of gay black men live in incredible isolation for fear of being ostracized from the black community for fear of being ostracized by the church. And I think that as we sort of move forward with the epidemic and as the epidemic becomes increasingly an epidemic that's affecting people of color the communities of color and churches are going to have to open reframe this is just a heterosexual epidemic. But but open up their arms to two gay men and you know Jacob the other piece of it is there are some breakthroughs it's not totally depressing picture in Harlem for example the pro active clergy that got involved with the AIDS crisis in the beginning and even launched a White House anti AIDS campaign a few years ago we even came up with a declaration of

war against AIDS. That came about because of the real commitment and concern of the clergy in Harlem and Harlem congregations school community improvement has a program for 60 families about 300 people who have the virus whose families are impacted by the virus. We provide them with housing. We provide them with telephones with furniture and with care and that becomes an important task. We have about 35 people on our staff that deal specifically with AIDS. We embrace people who are gay people who are bisexual and people who are heterosexual. The issue for us is the human being. The breakthroughs are beginning to happen also in Upper Manhattan. There is the Harlem directors group that was founded by a group of us that was concerned about the fight over all the precious resources that exist in in dealing with AIDS. And now we have mobilized all of the HIV AIDS organizations in northern Manhattan to work together

concertedly and they operate from out of the Teresa hotel. That is where we have to leave this part of the discussion. Reverend Dr. Preston Washington is pastor of the Memorial Baptist Church in Harlem. Jacob Levinson wrote about Rev. Washington and AIDS in the black community in general in the July August. Mother Jones thank you very very much. Thank you. Thank you. This is on the line on May 20 WNYC. And when we come back we will go live to the International AIDS Conference in Durban South Africa and talk to one of the people working on the newest attempt at an AIDS vaccine. Stay with us. Support for WNYC is provided by Memorial Sloan-Kettering Cancer Center the best cancer care anywhere. On July 13th at 2:30 p.m. a free workshop entitled Moving forward a forum for people treated with head neck and oral cancers will be offered registration and information to 1 2 7 1 7 35 27.

Put on the coffee stay up with George Preston and answer the question of the overnight. Let's find out how language has been used in tricky ways in chapter one of the language of war. It's also day at WNYC dot org. WNYC is supported by the California triangle a national political journal reporting on issues affecting the gay and lesbian community available by subscription at 9 1 6 4 9 1 4 0 0 7 or at Borders and Barnes and Noble stores. WNYC is supported by Internet providing marketing and sales representation to America's radio stations. Recent promotional opportunities and success stories about radio advertising available at w w w dot I and T E R E P dot com. This is on the line on May 20 WNYC I'm Brian Lehrer. Coming up later in the hour the online soapbox including race religion and cabdrivers status.

But first a ray of hope coming from the International AIDS Conference this year comes in the form of a vaccine being prepared for tests on people derive from knowledge about some female prostitutes in Nairobi Kenya who have been repeatedly exposed to the virus but never infected. We go live to the conference in Durban South Africa now to talk with Dr. Seth Berkley president of the International AIDS Vaccine Initiative. He's also an adjunct professor of Public Health at Columbia University and of medicine at Brown University. Dr Burkley welcome to WNYC. Hello from your home New York. Thank you Brian. How's it going down there in general good conference. Well it's been an interesting conference as you can imagine some of the political issues here led the conference opening to be quite charged. But I think the issues on the table are really one of disparities between rich and poor access to drugs access mother to child treatment. And of course most importantly what are we going to do about vaccines as we were talking about with our last guests with respect to access. But what about vaccines. Tell us about this new one

that's been in the headlines. Well what's exciting is as you know vaccines have really been off the agenda for a long time. There haven't been advocates for them and there really haven't been incentives for a lot of corporate investment and that that now looks like it's changing and there now is a renaissance of interest in vaccines. Our organization has four vaccines moving forward right now for Africa and we are delighted to announce at this conference that the first one has received approval to go into humans. That vaccine issue as you mentioned was designed as a result of studies that looked at these commercial sex workers that were repeatedly exposed and remained sir negative. And it turned out that they had a very strong cellular immunity and so this vaccine was designed to try to mimic that cellular immunity and to make sure that the vaccine would be able to be used and do it in all the different genetic groups of people living in Kenya where the vaccine is designed for. Can you say very briefly in lay terms what characterized that cellular immunity.

Well we don't really understand what characterized it. What we know is that there are two arms of the immune system there's an antibody arm and there's a cellular immunity arm. And initially most of the efforts on AIDS vaccines we're looking at antibodies but we've really been unable to get vaccines that give broad antibodies. So the big breakthrough is when these women who appeared to be resistant to infection turned out to have really only the other arm and they have no anybodies and they have no virus but they have very strong cellular and unity. And so what we're going to try to do is mimic that and the hope is that we will be able to then prevent infection and otherwise uninfected people. What I read in one newspaper was that they had very high T-cell counts. Those cells that are supposed to fight off infection if if exposed to AIDS. We always hear about T-cell counts in you know in us stories on this too. So you're going to just kind of inject people with a lot of T-cells in effect. No absolutely not. What we're doing here is it's a it's a combination that takes two vaccines and put them together in so-called prime and boost the initial vaccine

as a DNA vaccine and it's made with genes of HIV as well as what are called epitopes which are little bits of material that can be recognized by the immune system and that's going to be put in a person and the person's own cellular machinery machinery will then make some of the pieces of the virus and therefore get an immune response that will be followed by a live vector which is similar to the old smallpox vaccination which will also carry the same genetic material and the combination of this getting a priming and then a boosting in at least animal model gives very very high levels of these killer T-cells. You said that the four vaccines currently under development are vaccines for Africa. What makes a vaccine for a particular part of the world and not other parts of the world like the United States. Well initially all of the attention on vaccines were directed at the United States and

Europe partially because that's where the high paying markets are what is peculiar about about AIDS is that there are different types of viruses and different parts of the world. The virus is circulating in Africa are totally different than those circulating in the United States and Europe. These are so-called Subtype B or clade B in the United States and Europe and that's what all the vaccines were directed against. Africa has many other subtypes the most dominant subtype in the world is clade C and that's in southern Africa and as well as in India and parts of China. And until recently until we started on it no vaccine in the world had been made for a subtype C in Kenya. The primary subtype a and that is the strain that the the vaccine is being made against. And in addition there's also the issue of simplicity of use. So two of our vaccines are actually one is a single shot vaccine and one is actually an oral vaccine. The idea there being that they could be used in resource poor

settings which obviously are applicable for the United States as well but particularly important for rural areas and in places like Africa. So theoretically if say a gay white man in New York were to take this vaccine and this vaccine is effective in the populations in Africa that you're going to test it on it wouldn't necessarily be effective for him. Well the answer is we don't know that and that's something obviously we'll have to find out. Clearly what we we have to find eventually is a vaccine that works everywhere because viruses travel and certainly people travel. So the the goal at the end is to make sure we have a vaccine that works in every part of the world. But one of the challenges if we made a vaccine safe for the United States and we took it to Africa to test because that's a place that has a desperate need and also a lot of infection so it's a good place to test a vaccine and that vaccine didn't work we wouldn't know if it was because the strain was mismatched or if the approach didn't work. So by making sure that we match the strain to the local

setting where the vaccine is going to be testing we remove one of those unknowns. Clearly if it works then we're going to very rapidly have to make sure that it's going to work in the rest of the world as well for create a cocktail of vaccines to make sure we get protection. This is on the line on A.M.A. 20 WNYC we're talking about AIDS vaccines as we go live to the International AIDS Conference in Durban South Africa to speak with my guests Dr. Seth Berkley president of the International AIDS Vaccine Initiative. We can take one or two phone calls if anybody wants to call in. Real quick 2 1 2 2 6 7 WNYC 2 6 7 9 6 9 2 Dr Burkley you said in your opening answer that there are no advocates for vaccines Why would that be why would vaccines have fallen out of political favor. Well it's quite interesting. I mean if you looked at the initial response when we figured out that this was a virus back in 1984 of course there were no such things as anti-viral drugs. I think there was only one lifestance anti-viral drugs. So everybody said vaccines in fact Margaret

Heckler said we'll have one in a few years. What happened at that point was when the science was tough but also the activist community many of whom were already infected rightfully so said we must have drugs. And of course they led the effort to drive creating drugs and shifted the priorities and got all the drugs that currently exist made. And actually they deserve enormous credit because that would not have happened as fast without their intervention. But at the same time there was nobody saying we need vaccines and so more and more it fell off the public sector agenda from the private sector agenda the companies. Not only was the science tough in the public sector wasn't putting a lot of support in but they also said look the market is poor developing countries not only aren't we going to make a lot of money there but even worse we could have a scenario where we succeed and then the world says you have to make it available and there's not only no way to pay for it. But even worse there's no distribution systems. How do you get it out there. So there really were no incentives in place to try to do it. And that's why the International AIDS Vaccine Initiative was formed to try to really make this happen.

Let's take a phone call right now. This is Aadi in Brooklyn you're on the line. Hello. You're on the line. Yes good morning Brian how are you. OK thanks Dennis. I'd been in a lot of controversy about the AIDS situation in Nigeria and Dokdo who called it deal. These are used by the minute your boy that you downloaded it doesn't it. I said. And they said yes this is walking. What are we doing about an AIDS cure that's been used on Nigerian military personnel. Yes. What's the name of the Doctor do you know. God he's on his own needs it. OK. Dr. Berkley have you heard of that. Yes I have. And one of the challenges with AIDS that has been been quite tough is that over the years we've heard over and over again about exciting new breakthroughs. Unfortunately as we've looked at each one of these scientifically they have fallen through. We've seen Cam'ron. We've seen them one. We've seen a range of different cures come up in Africa this recent claim in Nigeria was looked at by a distinguished

panel of Nigerian scientists from the Nigerian Academy of Sciences. They looked at all of the information and basically said there wasn't any information to completely exclude that it was possible but there was absolutely no scientific information they could find that proved that this had any effect whatsoever. And so I think the answer there is is that it needs more looking into. But certainly people should not get their hopes up that there's something there. Cassandra in Manhattan you're on the line. Hi. I was wondering how you test in case you were wondering how you test an AIDS vaccine. Dr. Berkeley that's an excellent excellent question Sandra. There are three phases to testing a vaccine. The first one is what's called phase 1 and there we're looking purely at safety and to see if there's an immune response and that's totally healthy people often college students young young people young workers once you see that it's safe and that it gives a good immune response. Then you go to the second phase of testing which is larger numbers of people who are at risk. And in that case you want to again make sure

it's safe make sure that whatever other infections people have for example sexually transmitted diseases or hepatitis or other things don't cause problems. And you look at that larger population to make sure they have a good immune response if that goes well with that population and then you move into the real trial which is called Phase 3 efficacy and that's thousands of participants. You divide them into two groups one gets the vaccine. One does not get the vaccine. And in both groups you give them maximum behavior change information you give them condoms you give them clean needles if that's appropriate you do whatever you can to stop transmission of HIV. But given the fact that humans are humans. Some people in each group are likely to ignore some of that prevention efforts. And then you compare the number of people in each group who get infected and that's how you do an AIDS vaccine trial. Thank you very much. Thank you for your call. Other ethical dilemmas that you face in testing an AIDS vaccine you just address the question of who to give the vaccine to and who not to give the vaccine to. Is there also the issue of not knowing what the side effects might

be. For example you said before that some DNA from the virus itself is used in the vaccine maybe there's a risk of giving people HIV inadvertently through the vaccine process. Well Brian let me be clear immediately on that one the current generations of vaccines that we're using have absolutely no chance of giving anybody HIV. And that's an important point. We use little snippets of some parts of the DNA but not even close to a full range of it. So no risk whatsoever of getting HIV. Could there be untold side effects. Absolutely and that's why informed consent is absolutely critical. We test these vaccines on thousands and thousands of animals to make sure they're safe different animals and we move forward with the best knowledge possible. But people have to be informed that they're doing something that that carries some inherent risk. And the subject also has important sorry in the developing world it's critical that we make sure that local scientists are involved and that from the beginning including in making the vaccines and that all information is culturally

sensitive and that people you know put it in their own words in their own language and make sure that people really understand that informed consent. So it's not just a you know a show of signing a piece of paper that people actually are asked questions and tested on their knowledge before you go. Do you have any reaction to the study that was released yesterday showing that minoxidil nine very common spermicide might actually help transmit the AIDS virus. Rather then I guess the study was originally designed to see if minoxidil 9 helps defeat transmission of the AIDS virus and it found not only was it not neutral but it may in fact inspire transmission. That actually is not a new finding. The question really wasn't none in Knoxville 9 was originally approved as a spermicide that is something that kills sperm at contraceptive. And in that role it's obviously been quite successful. The question was could it be used to block transmission of HIV in a previous study in Kenya had showed in fact. Unfortunately in a not very well designed study had shown that there might be some

irritation from the knocks them nine which therefore it might ease transmission. And I think this study confirms that probably to be the case. So as a blocker of HIV transmission it does not seem to be a good agent for that. But as a spermicide it continues to be used and used safely for that purpose. Dr. Seth Berkley is president of the International AIDS Vaccine Initiative. He's also an adjunct professor of Public Health at Columbia and of medicine at Brown University. He joined us from the International AIDS Conference in Durban South Africa. Dr Burkley thank you very much. You're welcome Brian. This is on the line on Amay 20 WNYC. I'm Brian Lehrer now on to the online soapbox for today on race religion and cab driver status or anything else at 2 1 2 2 6 7 WNYC 2 6 7 9 6 9 2. Governor Pataki yesterday signed a law adding extra prison time for people convicted of robbery assault and other violent crimes. If the victim was a cab driver this comes shortly after the legislature passed a long

debated hate crimes bill adding extra penalties if a crime against another person seems to be motivated by racial religious or other kinds of prejudice. And we've been getting a lot of response in our newsroom to a commentary on the hate crimes law that aired on yesterday's MORNING EDITION by a public defender in the Bronx. We're going to replay this for you now and then open up our phones for your reactions. His premise is that though well-motivated hate crimes laws wind up transferring power as power from judges to prosecutors which is not ultimately in the interest of the community. So I hope lawyers among others will want to call in with your reactions. You can call while the piece is on at 2 1 2 2 6 7 WNYC 2 6 7 9 6 9 2. This commentary is by Bronx public defender attorney David Feiger. It's hard to hate hate crimes legislation. Everyone agrees that it's bad to hurt rape or kill someone because of who they are or what they believe. And most people

agree that a killing motivated by racism sexism or homophobia is even worse than the garden variety murder. So what could possibly be wrong with the New York hate crimes law. Well a lot actually. I know this is an unpopular position but the truth is the new statute misunderstands the reality of the criminal justice system. It's like this rape murder arson kidnapping robbery and assault along with countless other behaviors are all currently illegal. You can't do them no matter what. It doesn't matter whether your motive is financial gain spite or racism. Not only are these behaviors illegal they're punishable by a wide range of penalties here in New York for example for your first armed robbery or rape. You must be sent to prison for somewhere between five and twenty five years. These numbers leave a lot of latitude. What criminal defense lawyers judges and prosecutors do for most of their hectic days is to make judgments about where a particular crime should fall in the broad range of available sentences the judgments are based on a large number of factors one of which is appropriately whether the cases of bias crime.

The problem with hate crimes legislation is this. It's pandering and it's unintended consequences to significantly bolster the power of the prosecutors. It works this way. The legislature passes an exciting new bill criminalizing bias crimes. The new law provides harsh penalties for anyone convicted of a bias crime. The harsh penalties take the form of long mandatory prison sentences often no longer than those allowed for by the current law. But unusually strict in their minimums now determining whether something is actually a biased crime is rarely an easy judgment. Sure there are the archetypal cases in which a hooded KKK member pummeled someone to death shouting racial or religious slurs. But here in the sausage factory such easy and obvious cases are few and far between far more common are the confusing borderline cases subject to interpretation. He seems angry. Could this have been a biased crime. Well it was a cross-racial robbery. Maybe the motivation wasn't money but racism. And here comes the problem. Armed with draconian penalties prosecutors threatened to charge someone in a questionable or inappropriate case with the biased

variety of an already existing crime. It happens all the time. Assistant District Attorneys overcharge cases to get leverage over defendants to scare them into pleading guilty. Here's an example. Say two young men get into a bar fight. As it turns out though both of them are white. They were arguing about religion just before they came to blows. One man has a broken nose the other is arrested for the first time in his life. Under the current law a judge could sentence the young defendant to anything from a fine to five years probation or even a prison term of up to seven years. But now instead of ordering the young man to obey a curfew perform community service and comply with the probation department for the next five years a judge can only offer a prison sentence of three and a half years or more. Anything less is now in the hands of the district attorney. Why is this district attorneys are political and while judges are sometimes more sensitive to politics than justice they are by and large better than DA's as a result. Judges are more likely to be willing to craft a penalty that fits the crime and the

person regardless of whether it bolsters their tough on crime reputation by criminalizing behavior that's already illegal. The hate crimes bill doesn't really protect anyone knew what it does. Is that a potent weapon to the arsenals of already powerful prosecutors judges. Meanwhile once trusted to do justice. Insulated from the pull of politics are further removed from important plea bargaining and sentencing decisions. Bronx public defender David Fika in a commentary that originally ran on yesterday's MORNING EDITION. And isn't that interesting. I wonder if you have reactions to that whether you are lawyers civil rights activists or anyone else. 2 1 2 2 6 7. WNYC on the soapbox today because the way he frames the impact of the hate crimes legislation it really pits two liberal principles against each other. On the one hand the principle of discouraging hate crimes obviously and on the other the principle of giving judge's discretion to not over sentence first

time offenders and others considered capable of rehabilitation. This takes discretion out of the hands of judges. This makes mandatory minimum sentences something that liberals don't like to see imposed in general more common and imposed perhaps more frequently. He speculates on people without prior criminal records. So what do you think about that does that make you see hate crimes legislation in a new light. And what about the same thing when applied to cab drivers should they have that special protection because of their vulnerable status 2 1 2 2 6 7 WNYC on that or anything else. The soapbox is standing at 2 6 7 9 6 9 2 and we'll take your calls right after this. WNYC is supported by e credit dot.com credit decisions in seconds for business to business e-commerce. W w w e credit dot com. WNYC is supported by Erina entertainment and Showtime productions presenting music

under the stars a concert series at Purchase College SUNY in West Chester on July 29. The three Irish Tenors tickets are available at 800 4 7 7 6 8 4 9 are online at tickets Dotcom is on the line on AM 820 WNYC. I'm Brian Lehrer we have a great second hour coming up today. First Andrew Kirtzman right after the 11 o'clock news. Andrew Kirtzman of New York 1 on his book about Mayor Giuliani Rudy Giuliani Emperor of the city and then at 11:30 the guru of compassionate conservatism. George W. Bush adviser Marvin Olasky. We'll take your calls and talk about his new book. And if you want to hear somebody who really is a spiritual and philosophical set remember that debate when they asked George W. Bush who his favorite political philosophers were. Well if he was being totally candid he might have

answered in addition to Jesus Marvin Olasky who is a religious Christian evangelical activist as well as a kind of a policy wonk and he is a lot of the thinking behind what might be a President Bush's domestic policy. So you want to hear more of an Olasky I think coming up next hour as well right now to your phone calls on race religion and cab driver status or anything else at 2 1 2 2 6 7 WNYC 2 6 7 9 6 9 2. And Jerry in Manhattan Jerry are on the line. Good morning Brian good morning. I think that hate crime legislation demeans the ordinary victim of a crime. It says that if if somebody commits a crime and it's deemed to be a hate crime it's more important then if you walk into a convenience store and rob will kill the person who owns the convenience store. Well it's it's a different piece of the debate than than the commentator was raising. But people who support hate crimes legislation say that we already have a number of

things in the law that elevate the same crime to higher criminal status for social purposes. For example if you shoot a police officer you will go to jail for a longer time than if you shoot a civilian because it is considered so damaging to the social fabric fabric and to the to the potential to keep crime down to intimidate the police with violence that that it's worth that extra sentence. By the same token the supporters say it is so damaging to the social fabric of pluralistic America to allow hate and bias and prejudice to take violent expression that it's worth elevating that as well to that kind of status. So what I think what I think with police officers I understand you know the differentiation but if you if somebody goes in and kills somebody in a convenience store and the robbery and the person who was killed is

black and the robber is white and somebody wants to make an issue of it they're going to claim it's a hate crime. They're going to throw that in on top of one of the terrible acts that he committed already. How about the cab driver. Well with all due respect and I used to drive a taxi cab in New York did I'm going to have to prove to me that the unfortunate murder of a cab driver who rents the social fabric of our society. Well there I think it's a slightly different consideration. It's that these people are so vulnerable and the crime rates against cab drivers are so high relative to you know other other groups of people however you want to define groups. I don't know that the information about our crimes against cab drivers any more than you know relative to a number of cab drivers and convenience store or drugstore people or liquor store people. Apparently yes. Well what if they are let's say they are then then would you support it as well because they know that because then the next thing is if we find another group that's more vulnerable. You know are we going to increase that over

cabdrivers and keep upping the ante all the time until what we have is there's no such thing as just committing a robbery or committing murder. Those are all the gradations depending upon the person that unfortunately is the victim of the crime. Thank you for your call Jerry. I appreciate you and Kevin on Staten Island you're on the line. Yes I would just like to say I agreed with that essay that it is absolutely pandering when they pick one group over another to say that this is this crime is a greater crime. If you if you rob someone or you kill someone this is a violation of their basic civil rights just to life. And I don't think that because you're a cab driver I mean you could wind up passing laws that people who run 7-Elevens or people that have newstands or somebody that has a job that puts them in jeopardy should have now have a lot to me with just something that Pataki could sign in front of everybody and hold up in a way. Now of course there are two different there are two different issues. And the commentator who wasn't really talking about

pandering he was talking about you know taking discretion away from judges and giving it more to prosecutors and winding up with more long sentences for people who maybe shouldn't get long sentences. But he was talking only about the hate crimes legislation he recorded that piece I think before the the cab drivers were added as a category. But but but you're saying it's the same thing. Right. All right. Thank you. And Mary Lee in New Jersey you're on the line. Hi Brian. I just wanted to take a minute to talk about the the issue of how important it is to have shows like yours and the other shows on WNYC that give us more complete information about things for example that spermicidal study I was listening to the radio yesterday and I don't remember exactly which program it was but in addition to the information that we heard today again they talked about the study involving prostitutes and apparently that's the results of the

prostitutes that used it in effect more than 20 times a day is the result that got the decreased effectiveness. And in fact the injury to the woman but people who used about the women who used it in less than less than four times a day had the desired effect. I wonder how they tease that out because if somebody is using minoxidil nine twenty times a day well that person for one thing is almost certainly a commercial sex worker. And so of course is is that you know extremely heightened risk for HIV anyway. Exactly. And not to mention the issue of abrasions and inflammation. So but I just thought that it was really important sort of a point to make here is is that we need to be completely informed about all of these issues before we sort of leap to judgments about here. And I think that it's

wonderful that shows that the NYC actually give us more information so that we can be more completely informed. And we didn't even pay her to say that. Mary Lee thank you for your call. I appreciate that. Sam in Bergen you're on the line Brian about 20 some odd years ago John Stennis United States senator in Washington D.C. walking down the street was shot by some young hoodlums and they passed a law saying that if shooting a member of Congress a senator or congressman is a bigger penalty and more heinous than than just shooting an ordinary person I just thought I'd throw that into the mix which makes you think that that shouldn't be. Although there are various legitimate categories Brian I didn't call to discuss it I just say I want to just throw that into the mix. I just want you to know that there are some people out there that that get bigger penalties for doing something that in other words a member of Congress you can get to the chair I

think. Right. I gotcha. Thank you Sam I appreciate it. I guess if you want to take that argument to the top what about shooting the President of the United States. Does the assassination of President Kennedy for example give us evidence that the shooting of President rends the social fabric so much that perhaps it should be a more highly penalized crime than shooting a convenience store owner or maybe not maybe that's putting some people above others in the eyes of the law you know or maybe there is that extra extra penalty to the whole country as a result of the of the of the assassination. And so it should be. And and if you start from there then maybe you can work your way down and say well you know maybe hate crimes that represent whole groups are that potentially destructive maybe crimes against cab drivers who are particularly vulnerable and so on and so forth. But I guess that's for you to decide. Hassan in Manhattan a cab driver I take it you're on the line.

Good morning. Hi. Good morning. Good morning. You have a good show. I knew I liked you so much. We are more vulnerable because we cannot deny any passengers we have to pick up everybody. We are risking our lives so they should get more punishment like life because they have to go dead anyway. We must become the passengers. You know this is the law in New York City. We cannot deny anyone how. What do you say to your to your fellow vulnerable worker who might be in the previous call his example a convenience store worker. Well that's a classic victim of a robbery and shooting in the middle of the night too should they get the same kind of protection. I think so. Obviously we have a big following involving cabinet because everyone not to the problem. I don't know how you do that. But you see the difference. It is a big problem and it's you know you're obviously sitting ducks and and you know not to pick it up you know it might be it it it

might be more of a case of an abstraction versus a reality. You know it might be easy for somebody to sit back and say well gee this way some murder victims are going to be more worthy than others in the eyes of the law because the shooters will get you know higher longer sentences for shooting you than for shooting somebody who's just walking down the street. On the other hand they're going to do plenty of time presumably for shooting that person just walking down the street too. And if this saves a few extra cab drivers life then you know maybe it's worth not having the abstract perfect perfect equality on paper. So anyway thank you for your call and I appreciate it good. Thank you very much. Ernest in Manhattan you're on the line. I have a question regarding your first section are African-Americans and AIDS. Yes. The Reverend spoke about the crises in the black community. And he said that black women are getting at a

higher rate than anyone else. My question is which black women in the community does across s.c.s lines socio economic status. Yes. Well I think by and large the way women get it in the United States any women is by sleeping with men who have used I.V. drugs or sleeping with bisexual men probably in the African-American community in New York which is what our guest was talking about in Washington. It's probably women who have slept with men who have used I.V. drugs. It just again is this clear cut across yes lines with the class thinking you know well typically I.V. drug use is a lower class phenomenon. Now the question is if the elderly are getting aid when they're having sex with get away from. I mean I know the women are these homosexuals these former drug users I mean how is it being transmitted from home. Well the elderly Well I think with the elderly it would again fall into those same categories.

You know people who are sexually active gay men or people who are I.V. drug users getting it just from their I.V. drug use and and their and their female sex partners I should say that some women of course also use I.V. drugs. And so they get it that way themselves without sleeping with anybody. All right thank you. Thank you for your call. Chaudhry taxi driver pulled over you're on the line. Yes. Good Morning Show and on this one. Thank you. Yeah I think that's a very good law. First of all I'm not a cop now and I don't get it's from my mind because I'm going to grab bus and I kind of let it go because when see being forced you know zero tolerance some gifts god that well you know you pick up everybody you know. So that's laad design and has to me in the 99 percent of the community you know just kind of trying to say. Mm hmm. So I guess that's the word love.

Thank you for your call I appreciate it. And Andy on the lower east side you get the last word today. Oh yeah. BRIAN the morning. I support the thing because the law the by law because the victim bias crimes of victims not for anything that they own of whatever value they're victims just because they were born just because they exist. All the bias first and what passed for men walking down the street and wouldn't bother them. But if he decided that they were gay or if he saw that they were black he might get out and do them harm. What if in the last 15 seconds what do you say to the people who argue that that's denying however hateful it might be speech because you're punishing you're not punishing the crime extra in that case you're punishing you know the person for saying you black so-and-so or whatever they say. Well I think that's really sort of punishing ignorance and I don't think that's the issue because they don't do it because of who the person is.

And we've got to leave it there. Thanks to all of you who call. You can continue on our online soapbox which you now can find at WNYC dot org. Click on discuss and on the line will continue after the news on WNYC New York. Stay with us. From NPR News in Washington I'm Carl Kasell. President Clinton spent the night at Camp David where the Middle East peace summit is underway. This morning the president has gone to Baltimore to attend the NAACP convention. Meanwhile Secretary of State Madeleine Albright will lead the U.S. team in the president's absence. White House spokesman Joe Lockhart says he does not expect any loss of momentum while the president is away. He says Albright already has held talks with both Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Barak and Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat. China today criticized the decision by Israel not to go through with the sale of a 250 million on a radar system. The criticism came as U.S. Defense Secretary William Cohen met with Chinese President Jiang Zemin. NPR's Rob Gifford reports.

William Cohen met Chinese President Jiang Zemin this afternoon and spent twice as long as scheduled with the Chinese leader. Cohen told reporters afterwards that Jang had raised the cancellation of the Israeli radar system with him and that Taiwan had also been a major topic of discussion earlier in the day Foreign Ministry spokesman Juba Zao. In an oblique reference to U.S. pressure on Israel about the sale told a news conference that no country has the right to interfere in China's bilateral relations. Cohen felt the strength of Chinese views on another issue this morning when he made a speech at China's National Defense University. He came under pointed questioning from army officers about why the United States needs to continue with its plans for a national missile defense system. Rob Gifford NPR News Beijing. Sprint and WorldCom made it official today. The two big long distance companies jointly announced they will terminate their $129 billion merger agreement in the face of Justice Department opposition. The news had been widely expected and could mean more scrambling in the fast changing telecommunications market. NPR's Jack Speer

reports. The collapse of the merger was hardly a surprise. Both U.S. and European regulators had signaled their opposition to the combination of the number two and number three U.S. long distance companies. Tom Burnett president and founder of merger inside of New York institutional research firm says the company decided it wasn't worth it to try to fight regulators in court. On balance while the transaction would have made a lot of sense getting there was just too difficult and unpredictable too much of a waste of management's time. Too much of a distraction. They chose to call it off. Regulators claimed the deal would lead to higher long distance rates for consumers. They were also concerned. A merged company would have too much control over the system used to carry traffic on the Internet either WorldCom or Sprint could now be takeover targets for foreign companies looking to enter the U.S. long distance market. Jack Speer NPR News Washington. On Wall Street the Dow Jones Industrial Average is up nine points to ten thousand seven hundred ninety two. Trading is light on a volume of three hundred eighteen million shares. The Nasdaq composite index is up nearly 60 points to make that nearly 59

points to 41 58. This is NPR News. Support for NPR comes from the New York Times. Expect the world today the next installment in the series how race is lived in America. WNYC am 820 and online at WNYC dot org at 11 0 for 79 degrees in Central Park. Sunny today in a high near 85. Good morning I'm Chris Riley. A state judge has ruled the Giuliani administration must arrange for continuing mental health care for inmates released from Rikers Island WNYC. Corey Pitkin reports. In a sharply worded opinion Justice Richard Braun wrote the comparative harm is greater to the mentally ill inmates than any increase in bureaucratic work and cost to defendants. The class action lawsuit was filed last August by advocates for the mentally ill on behalf of seven Rikers Island inmates. It argued mentally ill inmates were being released without a plan for further mental health care. The city did not disagree but said inmates don't have the legal right to discharge planning under state law for WNYC.

I'm Corey Pitkin the second in command of the New York Police Department is leaving. First Deputy Police Commissioner Patrick Kelleher is announcing his departure this morning to head security at Merrill Lynch. An appeals judge has blocked a temporary visitation order that would have allowed a lesbian to see the two children she raised with an ex lover. The Brooklyn judge ruled that children might be harmed if they see the woman now and she ultimately loses her battle for permanent visitation rights. A statewide poll shows Vice President Gore maintaining a double digit lead over Texas Governor George W. Bush among New York voters in the race for the presidency. The Quinnipiac University poll has Gore leading Bush 49 to 37 percent. Governor Pataki is announcing at this hour he's chosen the state's new quarter the new quarters will depict the Statue of Liberty over an outline of the state interleague play tonight with the Yankees hosting the Marlins at 7 0 5. The Mets play the Red Sox in Boston mostly sunny this afternoon high in the mid 80s partly cloudy tonight low in the upper 60s and increasingly cloudy tomorrow and more humid with highs in the lower 80s. Right now 79 degrees and partly sunny WNYC am a 20 at

11 0 6. This is on the line. I'm Brian Lehrer. Later this hour the guru of compassionate conservatism George W. Bush adviser Marvin Olasky find out who's behind the thinking of the Republican presidential candidate on domestic policy. But first New York one political reporter and host of the nightly show Inside City Hall. Andrew Kirtzman earlier this week we heard from Village Voice senior editor Wayne Barrett on his new book about Mayor Giuliani. Well Kirtzman has written the other book about the mayor that's been in the news the last week. It's focus less on the mayor's personal life and more on the behind the scenes politics of the Giuliani administration and campaigns. This book is called Rudy Giuliani Emperor of the city published by morrow. Andrew welcome back to WNYC. Hi thank you. It's nice to be here Brian.

You know I want to start with you like I started with Wayne Barrett was the timing of this book intended to hurt the mayor and what you thought was going to be his run for the Senate. Oh absolutely not. I mean the publishers were interested in his book when he decided to run for Senate. And I can't deny the fact that it sparked more and more excitement by the publisher because they thought the interest in Giuliani would be nationwide because of this race. But the the goal all along of this book was to write a fair and objective book about Giuliani's mayoralty. I did not. I have no interest in hurting the mayor and in many respects I think the book is extremely flattering of the mayor flattering and while way. Well the mayor I think and I found it was very important to this city. And I think that he was the right man for the right time. And despite the fact that when you kind of look at the micro and the tactics that he used which were often ugly the macro the

big picture was that he went a long way towards saving the city. But New York City was dying when when he took over that disorder was really rampant in the streets of New York and here came a man who had such a fervent belief in his own goals and his own ideas and was so immune to criticism that he was able to resist the political pressure that had stymied other mayors before him and was able to ram through some changes that were badly needed for the city such as Well the the the most obvious was the was the sweep of that of the disorder that was running rampant in the street. I mean Eissa New Yorker could see it just going to work on an average day taking a subway as people were sleeping across the streets of a subway car. Except that he's sleeping across the seats of a subway car urinating in public. There were know bands of psychotics just roaming the streets and I think that a combination of

political idealism on the part of the Dinkins administration and sympathy for for these very very sad people on the street had kind of eliminated the big picture in the minds of New York's leaders which was that most New Yorkers were finding daily life on the street unbearable. And and I think Giuliani's gift was to was to be able to address the big picture and put and put the rights of of the others in their proper perspective. And you can argue in many have that he neglected their rights completely and that might be that might be true. But the bigger picture I think is that New York as a whole was becoming an unlivable city. And I think he'll be remembered as someone who reverse that Emperor of the city. Your subtitle or your publisher's it was. It was. It was a title that we bandied back and forth that the idea was that Giuliani became the most powerful mayor in memory at a time

when most people thought that New York was ungovernable and that especially in light of the Dinkins administration no one was really able to come and make a difference. And Giuliani came and made a major difference. And accumulated enormous power despite the fact that he had very little mandate. He had won his office by some 50000 votes but by sheer force of his will and his and his intellect and his stubbornness accumulated massive amounts of power he managed to frighten people. He was the most feared mayor and in recent history and that did him a lot of good. It also earned him a lot of wrath. But I think that I think that was the thinking behind behind the title. But here's a guy who really became kind of the king of this city. This is a little off the topic of the book but I wonder what you as a day to day political reporter and host of Inside City Hall on New York One think is going to happen to that mayoral power. After Rudy Giuliani leaves office is it going to dissipate

depending on who the next mayor is. Or did he gather power back into the executive branch in a way and I guess we could argue that that that Ed Koch even if you want to say Dinkins wasn't you could certainly argue that Ed gods was an extremely powerful mayor or maybe maybe an emperor of the city for his time who pushed a lot of things through but what but what happens to mayoral power in two years. Well it's a good question. For one thing Giuliani is a Republican and Democratic town. And he used that to his advantage he was immune to the pressures that a typical Democratic liberal politician faces in this town from unions and also just other Democratic politicians who he said he basically treated as non-entities during his administration. And that will change most likely if a Democrat is elected and it seems likely that a Democrat will succeed Giuliani. But I think one of the

things that your question illustrates is how much one person's personality can really determine how much power he has. And Dinkins had as much statutory power as Giuliani did when when he ruled but he was considered a very weak mayor. The answer the answer is a lot of it does rest in the I guess the pugnacity of of of a leader and a leader's willingness to ignore pressure this is on the line on AM 20 WNYC. Brian Lehrer My guest is New York once Andrew Kirtzman who has written Rudy Giuliani Emperor of the city. And we can take your phone calls for him on aspects of this book that have been in the news headlines or anything else you might want to talk to him about a 2 1 2 2 6 7 WNYC 2 6 7 9 6 9 2 and Andrew before we take some calls. Let's go over some points in the book some of which have been in the Daily News and The Post and The Times and some of which have not. Back to the 93

campaign. Dick Morris was all almost Giuliani's campaign manager. There was there was a meeting that was put together by Peter Powers who was the mayor's campaign manager to find a strategist. Peter Powers was the mayor's best friend was always going to be kind of the nuts and bolts leader but they needed someone who is a media type someone who could design the media campaign and be the kind of brains of the mayor strategy and Ray Harding the Liberal Party chief was pushing for David Garth. And not everyone was signed on to that and there was a interview that was held with Dick Morris chaired by Peter Powers. And it went very well for a while because he's so smart. And he had all these brilliant insights into what to do to make Giuliani's image. And then he turned his sights towards President Clinton and started trashing him. And by the end of the interview he had blown his shot at the job because people were worried that if he were

trashing one of his clients now what would you say about Giuliani what would you say about the people in the room. I find that a fascinating piece of history because that was 1993 where I know that since the Monica Lewinsky Clinton scandal that Dick Morris has been out there trashing Clinton sort of for a living. That's right. But this was 93 just after Clinton was elected for the first time and Morris was considered a good friend and before Morris had taken over as a chief adviser to the right to the president. All right. Also you wrote Al Sharpton's people met privately with Rudy Giuliani's people during that 93 campaign. It wasn't Al Sharpton people it was Al Sharpton who was Al Sharpton held two private meetings with members of the Giuliani camp in 93 once during the campaign itself the second time was during the transition after Giuliani had one and the accounts given by I suppose the Giuliani's side which are also backed up by some

neutral observers who attended these meals was that Sharpton was communicating that he was very unhappy with the job that David Dinkins had done. Even though Sharpton was publicly supporting Dinkins the impression that many people got was that Sharpton was interested in keeping his options open keeping interested in kind of keeping his foot in the door with the Giuliani camp while he was publicly supporting Dinkins just in case Giuliani won. And after Giuliani won what they feel he was communicating was OK let's keep lines of communication open. Let's let's do business. So why didn't they ever strike more of a professional working relationship. Well it's a complicated question. For one thing it's not necessarily clear that everyone in the Giuliani camp or the Giuliani himself had signed on to doing business with Sharpton. Secondly when the Harlem mosque episode ensued just a few weeks into the Giuliani administration and Sharpton tried to assert himself as the dominant

black spokesman in the city Giuliani saw an opening to shut Sharpton down completely at the beginning of his term and he he acted very swiftly and decisively and effectively and for a few years at least Sharpton was silenced. Giuliani slammed the door shut on him at City Hall and refused to even utter his name. And it was effective and arguably it was instrumental in kind of defusing the run up of racial politically racially explosive issues that were led by Sharpton through the caution Dinkins administrations. Then you have Christine lot of gateaux whose name is known for other reasons now steering the mayor away from public events with black audiences. In his first term will be the interesting thing and this is one of the most fascinating things that I learned in the course of the research for this book was that while the whole city was focused on whether or not Rudy Giuliani was having an affair with Christine a lot of go behind the scenes at City Hall she was acutely the accumulating enormous amounts of

power and exercising power in the most flagrant of ways and her prime I guess motivation was always to protect the mayor's image to protect the mayor from being seen as being heckled before black audiences or in some way treated badly. She didn't want to see that clip on the evening news of Giuliani being jeered or that headline The New York Times next day and she had accumulated the power over his schedule so that she was able to weed out invitations from black audiences steer him away from black audiences and argue in meetings when meetings or invitations did come up that it would be bad for him. And there are a few instances cited cited in my book in which things that seemed innocuous invitations that seemed innocuous a youth event where Rudd where were children a minority minority parents would be playing in these youth games. She didn't want

him to go to that. There was a jazz festival. She said he shouldn't he shouldn't speak at the beginning of a jazz festival because because of the blacks in the audience because blacks like jazz and the point was not that she was a racist and no one no one claims that she was a bigot or a racist what everyone believed is that she was just being overly cautious and overly protective of the mayor's image. And I think that you have to wonder if that wound up serving to further isolate the mayor from white black New Yorkers were thinking and feeling and experiencing day to day that might have indirectly led to things like the police policies that may have led to the Diallo incident and all of that. That is exactly right. That's the whole point. That's the whole point of course it did. Of course it did. He was extremely isolated from the black community and she wasn't helping things. You know in all fairness the decisions are made by Giuliani himself not that Christine lot of Gano and

way past the Law of God era. You're right about Giuliani being taken to watch a focus group of white New Yorkers reacting to his handling of the Diallo case. Well that would have been just last year. And what. And him blowing up and leaving the scene. It was I I think it was actually towards the tail end of Christie a lot of Gosnell's rain there huh. She was still there. She was still there but she was on her way out. But the this was being led by the mayor's pollster and some of the other members of his administration who were terrified by what was going on during the Diallo crisis. Sharpton had effectively mobilize this extremely impressive nonviolent arrest routine at one police plaza each day. His approval rating was down by 21 points in just a matter of three weeks and seemed as though the bottom were falling out from within the Giuliani administration. And Frank Luntz the pollster convened a focus group in which Giuliani was

brought to an office building in midtown and he sat behind a two way mirror and watched a group of all white Yorkers just average New Yorkers pick apart his handling of the crisis and he exploded in anger when it was over and said I'm not going to compromise my principles and you're all weak and the point was that they were he felt they were his own age were buckling buckling to Sharpton's pressure and he wouldn't do it. He said I'd rather resign than compromise my principles. And I think that incident illustrates a bunch of things. But one of them is I guess the danger of relying too much upon your own instincts at the exclusion of what everyone around you is telling you. And that's one way in which Giuliani was served poorly by his. I think his reliance on his and his trust in his own instinct the danger but also the willingness of this politician to buck not only the polls but what if you consider white New Yorkers his core constituency what his core

constituency believes to even go against them which might be to his political detriment because he believes in it. That's right. Well that's right. And there you could look at it two ways you could see this is a strong principled man. Or you could look at him as being just ridiculously average. We'll take a short break here then we'll start taking some of your phone calls for Andrew Kirtzman from New York 1 author of Rudy Giuliani Emperor of the City 2 1 2 2 6 7 WNYC. Stay with us. WNYC is supported by anthro corporation and throw cards modular computer furniture computers everywhere on the web. W w w dot anthro dot com. Hello I'm Linda lopin on the next New York in company linguistics professor Robin Laycock looks into the role of language in popular and political culture and who has the ability and right to make meaning for everyone. Then Jay Johnson Jr. on how Martin Frankel built innocent people millions. Richard Feigin nearly 50 years in our trade plus WNYC reporter

Marianne McCune on her series about autism and the Board of New York and Company daily starting at noon here on May 20. WNYC is supported by Internet providing marketing and sales representation to America's radio stations. Recent promotional opportunities and success stories about radio advertising available at w w w dot I and T E R E P dot com. This. Is on the line on AM 820 WNYC. I'm Brian Lehrer if you want to know what's in the head of George W. Bush. Stay with us because in about 10 minutes we'll we will meet the guru of compassionate conservatism. BUSH ADVISER Marvin Olasky and Olasky very influential in Bush's thinking on domestic and religious issues. Welfare Policy and all kinds of things in fact Bush wrote the foreword to Marvin Olasky new book compassionate conservatism or of an Alaskan voice will

definitely be heard coming out of George Bush's mouth. Many a time so we will hear it from his own mouth. Coming up in about 10 minutes we continue now with Andrew Kirtzman from New York One author of Rudy Giuliani Emperor of the city and Jim on the upper west side you're on the line. Morning. Good morning Brian. Andrew I'd like to ask you two questions. One has to do with clearing up sort of a murky foggy lack of knowledge I have about his early career. I understand that Giuliani worked for the McGovern campaign in 72. How did he become. Where do you how do you make this transition from the some if in fact he did from a Democrat to a Republican in that period and secondly what new insights do you have on the whole quality of life enforcement issue and how that was used politically in his first administration. Chasing the squeegee people. Because I know that the key thing that was focused on was who he slept with and what his relatives did in the 20s and 30s. And I'd like to get into some of these issues with you what. What new insights do you have on those questions.

All right Andrew on that on that first one I should point out at our listeners who are with us on Tuesday we'll remember that Wayne Barrett of course wrote the other book about Giuliani that's been in the news said Giuliani was preparing to run as a Lindzi liberal to the left of Ed Koch as late as 1989 if Koch had been renominated for a fourth term. But when he lost the primary to the much more liberal David Dinkins Giuliani's suddenly changed course and ran as a conservative in the general election for you know the obvious political reasons. Do you agree with that do you think that it might've overstated that. I think that's probably somewhat overstated. I think that looking back on his public comments at the time and the interviews he gave in 89 I think what was most striking was how ill defined his campaign platform was one way or another. I think he wanted to be seen as tough on crime and crack and corruption. I think that was his campaign slogan but he didn't want to. I saw no evidence that he did kind of

take on the liberal establishment the way he did in 93. So I think he's it's probably something of an overstatement. Well in answer to the listener's question I just want to point out that my book concerns the mayor's administration. It begins in 89 and goes forward. I don't want to posit myself as a as an expert on Giuliani's entire biography. I've forgotten the question. All right now I forgot the other question of the quality of life the quality of life right and the political uses of that well you know I'm going to argue again that I think that quality of life crackdown was very necessary for the city. And I think that was probably the major insight that Giuliani had in 93 that Dinkins did not that the average New Yorker was just fed up with the situation on the streets how much racial coding did you find in that.

How much was that Rudy Giuliani's Southern strategy if you will to galvanize white votes. You know you can speculate what you want. And the problem always with dealing with crime is that in an urban area the majority of the people who commit especially minor criminal offenses are going to be minority members. And so you can you can argue that anytime someone takes on crime that it has racial connotations. The bottom line though is that New York was having a major problem with the disorder and perhaps it needed someone who was willing to buck allegations of racial coding in order to take it on because otherwise it would have been left the way it was. And that was intolerable. Daniel in Manhattan you're on the line. Yes good morning gentlemen. This seems like a very interesting book and I intend to read it. However just a reminder the crime figures in New York started to draw about two years before Giuliani took office. Number two the ocurred nationwide

nationwide and the crime rates were dropped for more even more pronounced in cities like Boston and San Diego that did not use guns Quad's and and brutality. So there's this long tirade about the virtues of crusading Ruti rings a little false to me. OK. I'm not sure your facts are completely accurate. I don't think that the crime drops were more pronounced in other cities. I think that the that is unquestionable that crime did begin to drop under Dinkins. It's also unquestionable that crime plummeted under Giuliani. It's also fairly clear at least to me that there were changes in police strategy here which had major effects on what was going on on a day to day basis in the city that had a major effect on the crime rate. And finally the statistics showed for years and years that New York was actually driving the national prominence in crime and that it

wasn't just kind of part of a trend that it was actually creating the trend to a large extent because the amount to which crime decreased was so dramatic here. Saul in Queens you're on the line with Andrew Kirtzman. Yes at three points I'll remember all three. First of all was actually when he was choosing between Bratton and Kelly and I think at that time everyone knew Bratton was a publicity hound so to speak when he was looking at the subways. Right. So I mean at that point it told me that he wasn't really worried. He just wanted to get out. And he wasn't really worried about who was getting the credit at that point. The second point was what I wrote was a small article in The Post from Phil Caruso to former PBS sort of life small article that said that he threatened to put him in jail if because apparently he wanted to use contract to police officers. And Giuliani said everybody's trying to extort him or something like that. And Giuliani said you know don't try to extort me otherwise I'll just get you arrested. The third point

was the minute my final point is that I think any future Mayor Giuliani will catalepsy lots shadow over them for example he can run again and do without in a five by term limits. So those are the three points that I'd like to respond to. Thank you for your call so can he run in 2005 again. Sure he can. So you can't have two at more than two consecutive terms but then you could come back next week and then they're going to have two more consecutive terms of New Yorkers want to give it to them. I think that is. He won't. First of all the conditions that he'll run in then may not be the same as the conditions that he ran in in 93. And I think once again that he was kind of the right person at the right time because the city needed someone who was willing to kind of buck the prevailing wisdom at the time and clean up what was a deteriorating situation. But also he has so much baggage now he has he's got all his racial baggage has he handled it so poorly. Briefly on Bratton versus Kelly. There is and there's an incident that I write about in my book in which there is

kind of a final meeting of the Giuliani High Command during the transition period ninety three in which they have to decide between Ray Kelly and Bill Bratton and the decision is made to go with Bill Bratton because he was considered more of an innovator than Ray Kelly. But Giuliani says somewhat presciently he's going to be of Bratton he's going to be such a prima donna that he's going to forget who's the mayor and who's a police commissioner. And it was indicative of how Giuliani was perceiving Bratton from the beginning and how threatened Giuliani was by Bratton's ego. Well maybe he'll be the next mayor anyway. Right. You know before you go the mayor as we all know did pull out of the Senate race probably hurting your own Wayne Barrett's book sales if nothing else. But you also quote Adam Goodman Giuliani's media adviser in the Senate race as saying withdrawal would hurt his chances of becoming president someday. You think he has his eye on that ball. I think he's always had his eye on the White House. And I think that

incident illustrated how much of that was a concern within the Giuliani camp that that was I'd by a lot of people as the ultimate goal which is the White House I think that the mayor had to kind of put that aside right now. He's had so many problems his extramarital affair with Judith Nathan was disastrous. And I don't know whether someone in his in his health situation is even thinking about that. But I don't know that this is an enormously ambitious man. He's he's he's. His track record everything that I've seen from him from the beginning indicates one thing which is a driving ambition towards attaining more and more power. And I think the chances are that Giuliani won't go away and that he will seek higher office probably the governorship in the next election. I have to challenge your assumption on one thing that the Judith Nathan episodes have been devastating to him with the public haven't we seen in the polls that they've been devastating to him with political

reporters but not so much with the general public just like Clinton's affairs. I would I would. I understand your point and I think you're right that his public approval did not decrease. But I can see that a Republican establishment thinking about their next presidential candidate would not take into account the fact that he flagrantly went out and I guess highlighted even boasted about an extramarital affair. Andrew Kirtzman political reporter for New York one host of the nightly program on New York one inside city hall and now the author of Rudy Giuliani Emperor of the city published by morrow. Andrew thanks a lot. I'll be watching. Thank you. This is on the line on A.M.A. 20 when we come back we will meet the guru of compassionate conservatism George W. Bush adviser Marvin Olasky. A lot of what Olasky thinks George W. Bush says. Stay with us. Wouldn't it sound nice to hear support for WNYC is provided by your business your financial help via corporate underwriting can help sustain the excellent programs on WNYC.

For more information on the simple process of becoming a WNYC underwriter contact Vincent gardenin director of corporate underwriting at 2 1 2 6 6 9 3 0 1 3 AT&T supports WNYC and is proud to be a sponsor of the Celebrate Brooklyn performing arts festival celebrate Brooklyn presents the John Scofield band July 14th at 7:30 at the prospect park bandshell information at 7 1 8 8 5 5 7 8 8 2 or online at celebrate Brooklin dot org. Put on the coffee. Stay up with George Preston and answer the question of the overnight. Let's find out how language has been used in tricky ways in chapter one of the language of war. It's all today at WNYC dot org. Coming up at noon next New York and Company and Leonard low paid us here now to tell us what's on today's program. We'll be starting off New York and Company today Brian with linguistics professor Robin Lakoff who looks into who has the ability and right to make meaning of

language for everyone. And then Jay Johnson Jr. will tell us about Martin Frankel who built innocent people of millions. The story goes everywhere from Toledo to the Vatican. Richard Feigin will talk about his nearly 50 years in the art trade. We'll also talk with WNYC reporter Marianne McCune. She has a two part series about the Board of Ed and autistic children and that's what's coming up on New York in the run up to the news at noon here on Amy 20 WNYC. On. The. Line on May 20 WNYC. I'm Brian Lehrer a member if you want to follow up on anything we discuss on this program you can do it on our online soapbox page. But you now find it a different way on our redesigned Web site. Go to WNYC dot org and click on discuss to find the Self by not discussed. Now discuss to find the soapbox. Well George

W. Bush did something this week that neither his father nor Bob Dole did as presidential candidates he addressed the NAACP convention reportedly. He didn't win many converts from the Democratic leaning crowd but it was the latest stop in what he's calling his compassionate conservatism tour his attempt to convince Americans that conservative policies or at least his conservative policies help minorities and the poor rather than leave them behind. Governor Bush has a kind of guru in this area. Writer University of Texas journalism professor and Christian activist Marvin Olasky a Bush adviser since 1993. And if that name sounds familiar it could be because Olasky was also a big influence on Newt Gingrich during his time as Speaker Gingrich. Gingrich's famous Hello address to the nation upon being elected speaker he declared quote Our model is our Alexis de Tocqueville and Marvin Olasky. We're going to redefine compassion and take it back. Unquote. GINGRICH You may remember then distributed a copy of one of the Alaska books to all Republican congressmen and Olasky was a guest

on this program at that time. Now I live in Alaska whose own journey of belief has taken him from the Judaism of his birth in 1950 through membership in the Communist Party and now evangelical Christianity has a new book. It's called compassionate conservatism published by the free press with a forward by George W. Bush and I should tell you that you can read the first chapter of compassionate conservatism for free on our Web site. Click on the first chapter's reading room at WNYC dot org. And Professor Olasky Welcome back to WNYC. Good morning. Oh glad to be with you again. You begin your book by reminding us of the origin of the word compassion. What's the forgotten definition with suffering. In other words an emphasis on personal involvement not just passing a law sending a check but becoming personally involved walking alongside people in need with suffering or suffering with right. And your premise is largely a religious one that I guess flows from that that economic solutions won't basically change the lives of poor people that it

usually takes faith and personal involvement to do that. Sure a religious one but not specifically a Christian one. One of the things I've seen around the country is Jewish groups Islamic groups Buddhist Hindus all kinds of people involved in this and that's what's essential. At the end of chapter one you write I hoped to see welfare transformed as much as possible from government monopoly to faith based diversity. Tell us why you believe that. I'm more into that. Oh because the problem right now is that we essentially have one established philosophy of dealing with people who are in poverty. You have to go to the government office you have to do what they say one size fits all the common complaint of people who go through the welfare system that they're treated just as numbers. Take a number sit down and you get the same thing regardless of your particular situation and people's needs vary people situations vary. You need organizations that are a lot more flexible and oriented toward personal help rather than just doing things a bureaucratic way. You write that you've been half successful the law abolishing welfare as a government

entitlement in 96 was a victory but you've yet to see the face. Faith. Faith based alternative and acted well and acted in terms of national legislative action there are lots of things going on in the States. But you know there is a problem within the conservative movement that's been split going back to the 19th century. There are some conservatives who are social Darwinist in the sense of struggle for survival the poor according to this understanding have proven themselves unfit in the economic struggle and so don't care about them don't do anything for them don't help just hope they disappear. So there's a dividing line social Darwinist social Darwinist passionate conservative exactly right. And this again this goes back to the to the 19th century but it's it was lost for a while among conservatives it's coming back strong and it really has a biblical basis that I think is particularly appealing to Christians and Jews. An article I read about you in the Fort Worth Telegram said even you are angry at the Republican Congress under Gingrich and the bill was signed by President Clinton

despite your influence for as you saw it abandoning the poor and using your notion of compassionate conservative compassionate conservatism as a smokescreen for guiltlessly cutting back the welfare state. Fair assessment. Well I mean number one my influence has been somewhat exaggerated. But number two Alexis de Tocqueville involved in his distinguished company indeed but now the misunderstanding actually is in terms of cutting back the welfare state I mean that that essentially did not happen. It didn't expand any further. I think overall the changes have been have been useful there were some things that I I wish had been done differently but I've gone to I went to job training programs for folks coming off welfare before the welfare reform and they were jokes. I mean no one took them particularly seriously knew the instructors knew the students. There was no challenge involved. Now there's a little bit of pressure. There are certain time limits for people on welfare and that actually has been very helpful in the people who have come off welfare or are often the first people to say that they needed that. That useful pressure.

So you say the federal government hasn't enacted some of these phase two programs but the telegram also says that Governor Bush to your delight in Texas has quote an act a spate of legislation that promoted religious drug treatment centers prison ministries and church run daycare centers. Yeah I mean Governor Bush I think has done a terrific job there and he's always said that he wants people of all religions Christians Jews Muslims and so forth to come forward and not have to check their faith at the door. And we've seen we saw some terrible situations previously where people who were willing to volunteer put in long hours because of their religious faith were basically told they couldn't do it if they were going to express their religious faith in any way there was a real gag rule. He's removed that gag and allowed for more religious liberty one of the hats I swear I'm a senior fellow at the Acton Institute for the Study of Religion and liberty and I take those those very seriously religion and liberty. They need to go together.

So you know that some of my listeners are already wondering are you more concerned with trying to help the poor or promoting your religious beliefs. Oh well I'm concerned personally with both. I mean I think both are important. But from the public policy standpoint you know what you want to have as far as government doing. It's very important that government be even handed have a level playing field for all groups but all groups compete let them say let the people have free speech and freedom of religion let them go and share whatever faith they have and God will work it all out. But if the Fort Worth telegram's description of Governor Bush's programs is accurate I'm going to read the same quote I read before he enacted a spate of legislation that promoted religious drug treatment centers prison ministries and church run day care centers that makes it sound like the state of Texas promoting religion. Well it's more really giving and giving religion an equal shot. I mean here's one example of how it works out in practice. There are a lot of prisoners in the Texas prison system. I think I think the number has increased to

over 100000. Now a hundred fifty thousand those who are still alive. Yeah exactly right. We might get into that if you want but time is fleeting. Probably not on this. OK all right but a lot of prisoners there. The system does not work particularly well. Most of the folks or at least about half of the folks who get out of prison several years later they're right back in prison. A high recidivism rate it's called What can you do to try to drop that. I mean none of the state programs have worked very well so he's open up the system now so that religious groups if they want can get it and if the prisoners volunteer to be in particular programs can have special programs. There is a Christian program that's going now there can be again jewish islamic all kinds of different programs for folks of that particular faith those who volunteer to be in that and that program instead of just getting the usual stuff. They have a special program that the religious groups pay for but they are allowed access to prisoners who want to be in the program and the particular thing is setting up a mentor. Having a person who meets with them one to one for a period of months before they got to prison so that when they do get out they're connected with someone else or someone else than a person from their criminal past.

Marvin Olasky is my guest. Some call him the guru of compassionate conservatism. He is certainly a close adviser to Governor George W. Bush of Texas a thinker who has tremendously influenced Governor Bush in whose thinking we would probably see reflected in a Bush presidency. His new book with a foreword by George W. Bush is called compassionate conservatism. And let's take some phone calls from Marvin Olasky at 2 1 2 2 6 7 WNYC 2 6 7 9 6 9 2. And Roy in White Plains you're on the line every four years you conservatives become liberals to me. A compassionate conservative is a liberal. There's no such thing as a compassionate conservative in my opinion. And George Bush salivates when he sends people to the electric chair. And even that grandmother that he executed after the pope begged him not to do it. He ridiculed her and mimicked her. That is the most vicious thing I've ever seen in my life. The Republicans have a terrible record on

his record on the environment is the worst in the country in Texas. I don't trust you I don't believe I wouldn't believe anything that comes out of George Bush's mouth. And if he puts another Clarence Thomas on the Supreme Court he'll be like his father one of the worst presidents we ever had. Thank you for your call. Not a swing voter. I don't think but if I can pull a question from there I guess it would be. Governor Bush has sometimes said things that sound like he's he's out to show the country and Rush Limbaugh says this a lot by the way about Governor Bush. He's a big Bush supporter and I've heard him say a number of times on his show that what Bush is really doing is showing the country that conservative principles are compassionate. Not that he has to change conservative principles to make them more compassionate. Well some conservative principles are compassionate because again this goes way back a couple of hundred years. There is a strong conservative tradition of compassion there's also a strong conservative tradition of meanness and

nastiness. They're both there just as they're there among liberals. This is nothing new but this is bringing out. I think the better side of conservatism the difference might be that compassionate liberalism tends to mean passing a bill passing a piece of legislation. Compassionate conservatism historically means actually coming alongside a person in need working one to one with that person. Harvey in Yonkers you're on the line. Yeah hi. You actually did touch on this when you talked about prisons but specifically during the era of Governor Bush they've actually increased the penalties for drug use and locked up a lot of first time users. Now whether or not Bush himself ever used illicit drugs we know he has a history of using alcohol and he was able to overcome that. I'll grant you that but what is compassionate about locking up large numbers of marijuana smokers in the first time drug users in a rather brutal and in the process. And the Texas prison system.

Well this isn't a problem specific to Texas alone but I agree it's a prison. I mean it's a problem and it's this is something we're going to have to have a big robust national debate on when he is proposing wrong direction. What do you think. Live in Alaska. What do I think. I think we need to find ways to discourage drug use including including marijuana I'm getting on to the to the really hard stuff and so on. But how how you do that is very difficult. I'm no expert on drug penalties. There may be other ways to do it I think this whole thing has to be reviewed. It's not it's certainly not your main Your main area. Not really something that you write about but when you were here in 95 and Harvey thank you for your call you stressed and you were getting at it earlier in this half hour. You stressed volunteerism rather than economic entitlements as necessary to help poor people that's part of the faith based or church synagogue mosque based solution. And I think I asked you then if there are really enough volunteers to go around to do this work. And if anything since then working and middle class Americans lives have become even more

time crunched. So if you're going to take away that sustenance check as an entitlement from a poor person and say they have to find their way to community religious institutions where hopefully they'll be enough you know well-meaning souls with with some more means to find their ways to them. Well it kind of leaves it to chance doesn't it. Well I'm not in favor of taking away the sustenance track I'm in favor of trying to do other things to challenge people and help people get out of poverty. Let me give you a specific example. I mean I've seen this around the country different places very often in a housing project say there there are two women living right next to each other both single moms both exactly with the same socio economic background same educational lacks and so forth. One is is not paying any attention to her kids just letting them drift and they're getting into trouble. The one next door is actively involved in the kids lives. Make sure when they when they have an evening that they're doing their homework that they have a warm place to stay and so forth. And she also takes care of other kids to take

the kids of that woman next door. Now they both get their sustenance check. The question is with a woman who is really helping her kids and other kids other ways you can help her to do more of that job by the way if she wants to know taking other kids too. So whose parents have also pretty much been in them and the way she can help her if she's a member of a church or synagogue or some religious organization then I want those groups to come and provide her with additional resources to help her do the better job she wants to do. We'll take your phone calls some more of your phone calls for Marvin Olasky author of compassionate conservatism and George W. Bush adviser to 1 2 2 6 7 WNYC in a minute. This is on the line on May 20. No. Oh I already took the second break. We don't have to take a break at all. I can go right back to the phones right now. Barbara Nanuet you're on the line. That's a mistake. I'm glad to have met Barbara hello. Hi. How are you. OK. I just want to ask Mr. Polanski why I should even consider voting for George W. Bush. I call him a son of a bush and a jerk with a smirk.

First of all I don't want I am not a religious person. I am an atheist. I don't profess belief in God. Why should I. I'm very much afraid of what you would do the Constitution you try to do it with Newt Gingrich by rewriting the whole Constitution. There is a separation between church and state and your candidate would violate that without your giving vouchers to parents to send their children to religious schools. That's a violation of the First Amendment without even getting into the legal questions and leaving the name calling aside. You said before that when I asked you Are you more concerned with helping the poor or promoting your religious beliefs. You said both. If that's Governor Bush's attitude and we know he's professed his strong belief in Jesus is that is that something that should be troubling to non-Christian about. Well his his chief domestic policy adviser for the campaign is Steve Goldsmith the former mayor of Indianapolis. Steve is Jewish and he doesn't hide at all he wants to

promote it. We all want to promote our beliefs I mean there's that there's a great fellow I've spent time with Rabbi Daniel Lapin who is head of an Orthodox Jewish group called toward tradition. He wants to but his government the right venue through which to do that. Well government can provide a level playing field for all groups I mean government should not ever favor any one particular religious group over another. But if you're saying let's say with when you have real failures of the welfare system and failures of the prison system and so forth you're saying well here's the choice. It's either keep doing the same old same old More failure or else let's try something on an even handed basis for all religious groups to see what they can do that I think is the is the the new idea in American politics right now. And as far as the color vote for Governor Bush well after he served one term as governor 70 percent of Texans voted for him for reelection which include lots of liberals too there are liberals in Texas and they voted for him because they thought they saw him doing a good job. Tell us a little bit about your own spiritual journey. You were raised in a Jewish family. Oh sure. Bummers 13. I read H.G. Wells history of the world atheist at

14 and very proud and scornful in my and my atheism went all the way to left I mean into into hardcore Marxism came out of it because I came to believe in God again and as I looked into this and read and studied it seemed to me that that Jesus Christ is part of the Trinity that Christianity is true. Now I know that's enormously alienating to lots of folks who may be listening but here's the strange thing. You may not believe it but it's true. I mean from the position where I was as a communist I mean becoming a Christian brought me back much closer to Judaism I mean my kids now one of whom is here. I mean we all we read the Bible mainly the Hebrew Scriptures every night after dinner. They all know about Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and Moses and David and everyone else and they would never know that if I had remained technically Jewish but but Marxist. Yeah. But it's very rare for an American Jew to convert to Christianity these days. You actually actually might actually not there. This this is there are tens of thousands maybe hundreds of thousands around the

country right now. I don't know the exact number but this is not a small movement. But you couldn't find God through Judaism somehow that you could through Christianity. Well you know Rabbi Lapin says that I'm a failure of suburban liberal Judaism and perhaps so. But we all have our different different paths and I'm glad to discuss this with people. Mary in Manhattan you're on the line with Marvin Olasky. Oh yes Miss JALOUSIE. I just wanted to ask you you said this morning that national legislation is needed for a policy of faith based diversity since conservatives have been fighting federal legislation for as long as I can remember and I want to bring policy back to local communities and states. Why on earth do you think that Republicans should be advocating national legislation policy on something such as faith based diversity. Oh I'm advocating essentially state based and local based policies where the national government has to get involved because there are so many laws on the books right now that actually

checkmate religious groups of all kinds from getting involved. Well some of that has to be relieved they checked money my tax money from going to local faith based organizations. I just simply don't want to fund a local church or synagogue or mosque in order for them to take my money and pass it out amongst the poor. Oh yeah. That's not that's not the way I want to go either. Here's here's my my favorite proposal that you or anyone else let's say you're paying a lot of money to the to the federal government and in taxes you could take $500 of that money that you send to Washington every year in income taxes and instead of sending it to Washington you could send it to poverty fighting group of your choice. Anyone who you think is doing a good job. Christian Jewish Muslim atheist whatever. And you could take that off your taxes as a tax credit. So more money would go to those groups and then would begin shifting the money from Washington to to local programs that can do a much better job.

Mary thank you for your call. What's another top policy priority for you if Governor Bush is elected president what would you actually like to see proposed and passed by the Congress that you think is really important. Well again Steve Goldsmith in Indianapolis I think has provided a role model of us he had working out of city government what he called the front porch alliance. This was a group that helped community groups of all sorts deal with all the massive regulations that we have to live with. So I think you almost need at this point a certain anti-government government for something that will help people just just besieged by red tape to cut through some of it to get some things done. You know one quick example in Indianapolis there was a minister with there were drug dealers in an alley across from his church and he just wanted to find some way to turn that alley into a park where kids could play. Everyone in the area Agreed except the drug dealers. This was a good idea but there was there are 51 different entities that had some say over that alley. So the front porch alliance helped to help them to cut through the red tape and get the job done and now kids play there. Drugs are down. Prostitution is down crime is down. I'd like to see that type of thing be available to other groups.

One more call Abdula in Babylon you're on the line. Thank you. One danger that I see is losing the focus the blurring the focus from from fair distribution you know really the most that the government can do is just be fair or equal in what is distributed among the people whether it's distribution of justice or access to justice or punishments or economic opportunities. And if the distribution is the only thing that they can account for I don't think they can make the people regard them as a fountain of morality or religion. I mean who sees the politicians this way. Who's ever going to see them this way. I think these things the counseling of the people the spiritual need spiritual poverty and need and dilemma that suffered equally by the very rich and the powerful and the poor and all the government can do to account for itself and be fair in what it distributes What do you boil it down to taxes or whatever.

We have a minute left. Marvin Olasky Well I agree with that. Problems are distributed among rich and poor. What the government can do is be fair to anyone who wants to come out and help. Right now the problem is we have discrimination against religious groups. We have discrimination against Orthodox Jews we have discrimination against conservative Christians folks who want to actually bring their religious beliefs into into problem solving are told to forget. You can't you can't say those things. We have a minute left half a minute left. I'll take you up on your offer from before to comment on the death penalty and I will throw in Texas cutting legal defense for indigent defendants. Texas is generally low social spending compassionate conservatism in action. Well there are a whole lot of reasons about that legal defense but including including some some corruption within that system. But but yeah absolutely the poor should have strong legal defense. There should be DNA testing. I mean every step should be taken. But if you ask the question to me is capital punishment legitimate. I mean I look at the Bible and you know the the

the Jews and Christians can agree on this. You read you read the five books of Moses I mean capital punishment as they. Now how we apply it is a real problem. We may have lots of corruption in how it's applied. Lots of inequities that has to be looked at. My then Olasky George W. Bush adviser University of Texas journalism professor has written compassionate conservatism published by the free press. And a reminder you can read the first chapter of that book for free on our website. Go to WNYC dot org and click on the first chapter's reading room. Thank you very much. Good to be with you. And that's it for today's on the line. Tomorrow we will look at that Philadelphia police beating video and more on the line is produced by Marianne Carlson assistant producers Elaine in the kantha and Leila McGovern with help today from Randy Brett and Emily Laurie. I'm Brian Lehre. This is WNYC am 20 New York. It's New York and Company Time now here's Lundahl pate. Thank you Brian. Good afternoon everybody and we start off New York and Company today with linguistics professor Robin told Mike Locog who looks into the role of language in popular and

political culture especially the ability that someone has to make to make meanings for everyone. Then Jay Johnson Jr. on how Martin Frankel built innocent people of millions of dollars. Rich