American Experience; John Brown's Holy War; Interview with historian Paul Finkelman, 3 of 5

lay's oh yeah when browne comes back from kansas and when brown goes to the east in kansas he brings all of his forces of persuasion with him and all of the elements of his charisma come together first year is his stubbornness and his vision daisy absolutely knows he's right and so he can go and talk to people with a self confidence which may be totally misplaced which which were a rational people would say is crazy but nevertheless when he sits down to look someone in the eye with those piercing eyes and says this is what i'm going to do they are blown away by it and he can be derailed questions about method questions about tactics that's irrelevant to john brown he has a kind of hire a vision of the truth and the people least talk about him as if he's crom well these chrome well a lot he is indeed purity in

visionary with the truth come back with cromwell's armor to be decreasing and slavery in addition he is a man of action a man of violence and the easterners had been sitting around and they're drawing rooms talking about slavery they have never done it very much acting in anything except taking action on banking taking action on commerce and here is this man and rough clothing who it comes to dinner he refuses to eat butter because he says it would be good for his soldiers like the fact is he never liked butter but he doesn't tell people that he says i don't eat butter because a soldier doesn't get used the luxuries others just blows people away in the end in new england and they love him because he's absolutely certain his right he quotes the bible regularly he is tough he's taciturn he doesn't talk a lot in it in any committee in it community where people use words brown sits around and cleans his weapons at the dinner table and this is just

amazing to these people and they're ready to open their hearts their homes and their pocketbooks to him your question again well yeah brown lives with death all his life now this may seem obvious was all this live with death but broward has a number of children who die is first chinese for brown has a number of children who die another name that he had deceived his commute sentences end up eating cotton candy to but mentally i need to send out a brown as a number of children who die your pocket brown lives with death throughout his life a number of these children die when they're young that his first wife dies he goes out to kansas and one of his sons is murdered he is used to death he is prepared for death and because he has this

calvinist a fatalism about him that in the end god has a plan and he is part of that plan indeed he is put on earth by god to help bring the plan into effect i think the death of his children is simply something that historically accepts it is also again part of his self creation and kansas as a warrior if drug before kansas john brown had never been a warrior he only talked about fighting slavery once he started doing it he is able to accept death because it's part of the image that he himself is creating for himself as well as for others that's what you want you know i wonder as well early twenties john brown's plan to handle it what is john brown's plan and there's great question brown's alternate plan is to create a what he calls a

subterranean route into the south to spirit slaves out of the south and for much of his life adult life he studies the terrain and the topography of what is today west virginia biden and at that time his western virginia with the idea that he could go into the south and bring slaves up through the appalachian mountains all the way up to north elbow which of course is the last outcropping of the appalachian center which we call the adirondacks and so he sees these mountains as a route to bring slaves to freedom and if in fact he could've pulled this off he would have severely undermined slavery as one could imagine somebody ferreting out a couple thousand slaves here and bring them up to the north and then in canada that would've undermined slavery in the south i would've cost alec amongst label is obviously when infected slavery reality because they're four million slaves fifty thousand are freed by this method it's not going to destroy the system that would've shaken the south the place that he claims is

his ultimate plan i think the reason he doesn't go to kansas early on or immediately is because he sees kansas it's peripheral to the main focus his main focus is the south that's where slavery as kansas is not wear sleeveless there's almost no slaves in kansas are fighting over when to make its slave or free and eventually gets drawn into the fight but his real focus is this plan to begin to attack slavery where it is and with the exception of harriet tubman who made a number of forays into the south to bring people out of slavery john brown is the only northern abolitionist whoever comes up with this notion you actually have to go to where slavery is an attack slavery on its own turf and that may make him truly unique this notion that he can do this i think has an effect on his charisma because he's got these ideas which seemed so wild and yet he so certainly can work

you know you know it whether john brown flew where the john brown thinks he's moses' arises is an open question certainly he sees himself always and biblical context he talks about the people that the ancient israel lights had to fight and he refers to his enemies as the media nights and other you know ancient biblical enemies of of the people came out of egypt and that says he sees himself as an old testament figure a local testament figure can also quote the new testament and that says he is east is very religious and very biblical i mean i think his plan though is not does not based on the bible i think his plan is simply based on something that he dreams up and it's mind a workable plan and even harpers ferry couldn't work they could have gotten the weapons and harpers ferry gone into the mountains and hate for who knows how long it had become fairly

successful in the day he had become fairly successful at evading people in kansas he might very well have gone into the mountains lived off the land haunted it's taking food from slave owners when i needed it and begun running slaves out of the cell i think has been successful in that that we wouldn't be talking about him today i think brown may have understood that grunting slaves out of the south was not what was needed but something more dramatic was needed and so when he gets to harpers ferry he turns his some tyrrhenian escape route into open warfare because that is what is needed for the times and he says jesus uses it's impossible to know what's going on and browns mind when he

goes to harpers ferry he claims he's going to get guns and move into the mountains and begin to liberate slaves obviously something happens when he's at harpers ferry he doesn't do that he delays he gets stuck at harpers ferry and eventually he is captured by the way one of his son says he won't go casinos this work is his father will delhi tomorrow but it may be that he's not telling and maybe he's decided that what has to happen or something really big running slaves out of the south isn't big enough is already done that in missouri he's fought slave owners in kansas now he has to strike out at the national government and a federal armory he has to drive terror into the hearts of virginians by bringing the war against slavery into virginia and so he made simply understand that this kind of sacrificial suicidal crazy attack is what is needed to wake up the north to the true evil of slavery up by the way if he if he thought all this

here he may have understood when he got to harpers ferry that what he needed was this crazy suicidal dramatic attack on the federal government and on slavery virginia to wake up the north to the reality of what was necessary to fight slavery and by the way if he did think that that he was truly a genius because in fact it works it is radio is the final blow saying the nation of course towards civil war hand he is brilliant at doing what he wanted to do if that is indeed what he wanted to do and see that lesson very well and if indeed what he wanted to do is this one dramatic event it and if in

fact is gone harpers ferry was to produce this one dramatic event that would shake up the north and the south and simply changed the entire chemistry in the nation and he was brilliant because it worked that has been there's just a freestanding comment to put in really had one thing to keep in mind about the world around is in is that not only is there no democracy in kansas but there's no democracy in the south there's no free speech in the south you cannot discuss slavery you cannot run an anti slavery candidate people who attack slavery go to jail there it harder to further death thrown out so from brown's perspective the only way to make a change and this is different very much from our own age but the only way to make change is through revolution because the political process is stacked

against freedom and there is no chance to change the political process because the south as a semi totalitarian reading when it comes to discussing slavery so violence becomes again a kind of jeffersonian notion that you have a right to revolt when there are no alternatives open to you barbara lt and got one more shorter also just the world of rounds in the services i don't know where amy asked you honestly you know is just rising again and i look i'm feeling my way to the us and see what i'm doing is the way i write i write it and then i re writes art rewriting or later we are the world the brown lives in is constricted by the fact that there's no political democracy in the self you

cannot excuse me the world around the world at brown lives in his constricted by the fact that there's no political democracy in the south you cannot discuss slavery uncle tom's cabin the greatest novel of the year and his band in the south a southerner him to iran a helper writes an attack on slavery and he's chased out of north carolina and barely escapes with his life so there is no possibility of peaceful change that's what makes brown's you're so different from our own the only way you can make change and slavery is through a violent attack on slavery which ultimately of course is what granted chairman accomplished during the civil war slavery cannot be touched by peaceful means because there's no democracy in the south and there's no way even for whites who oppose slavery to express their dissatisfaction except by leading the south as for example people like abraham lincoln's parents did la's minutes they're feeling

a lot more any idea why his ashes here as you know a book and i think it's important to see the big difference in eight it's important to understand that one big difference between john brown's world and ours is that political change was impossible when you came to slavery there's no democracy in the south you cannot vote about slavery cannot be put on the ballot lincoln is not on the ballot in the south making sixty white southerners who oppose slavery are chased out of the south were forced to leave or leave on their own and there's no free press the greatest novel of the year old toms cabin has banned so enticed slavery literature is burnt people who circulated are jailed so for brown the only way of

changing the world in regards to slavery is by any shooting some sort of illegal activity whether it's stealing slaves as the southerners would call it or liberating them as the slaves would see it or whether it's making do we're directly on slavery as in harpers ferry the only way you can attack slavery is outside the political process and the legal process because unlike the world we live in the political and legal processes close to change with regards to slavery let's review this for you like chocolate you know in the context of kansas pardo it makes a great deal of sense to our sensibilities it's horrible killing people with swords all this blood all the score dragging people out of their cabins at night but there's no political democracy and

taiwan no chance for peaceful resolution and missourians are charging in sacking towns like kansas burning out free state settlers and there's no law that's going to protect the free state centers because the powers in the hands of the federal government which is pro slavery so for brown potter water navy comes up simply a preemptive strike against people who've already threatened to kill him and his neighbors have constantly been threatening them with jail with physical assault with hanging with shooting with being run out of the country the political process as we knew it today does not exist and how widely and that again is the big difference the big difference between then and now between kansas and today is that in kansas there's no method for peacefully preventing slavery because the political process won't allow it if by

the police bomb you know you summon the stuff of jesus brownstein says jews no one wants brown gets to harpers ferry something happens i don't know whether it's a loss of nerve a loss of whale confusion perhaps his whole lifetime of struggle and it cost him his life at harpers ferry because he cannot think it through but he stays at harpers ferry when he should've left he stops to train and then once the train go so it can alert the nation to what was going on none of this makes any sense

the plan to seize the armory makes a great deal of sense it worked he sees the armory he could've taken the weapons and left perhaps without killing anyone in a brown doesn't go to harpers ferry to kill people he tries to avoid bloodshed why he stays is of course the great enigma of john brown there are a couple of possibilities when is it simply a motion mental collapse while at harpers ferry he is stuck here and he's immobilized by you his own demons by his own brain by his own lack of energy the other possibility is that he truly believes that slaves are going to flock to harpers ferry and he stubbornly sticking to the plan because he thinks the slaves will hear of harpers ferry and they will rushed to him even though of course blacks like frederick douglass had told him that was nuts that the slaves weren't going to risk their lives over something this crazy the other possibility is that harpers ferry

he just decides that this is a good place to die that this is a good place to have that john brown has been living with death for a few years he's seen death in kansas he knows the death has its value he comes from a calvinist culture that glorifies the crucifixion of jesus and he may begin to see himself as setting himself up for his own crucifixion it does that then the tragedy is that he takes a number of men with him we did not come for that purpose and of course they are not martyred only brown becomes the true martyr the rest are forgotten ok researcher brown decisively well seventy i'm just waiting for the

sound to go into a one explanation for ground now lead in harpers ferry is tiki decides that this is the place to make the final stand this is the place for him to become a martyr if that is the case and the great tragedy is that he takes with him a number of his men who did not come to harpers ferry to die but came to live and deliberate slights and that is one of the tragedies of harper's ferry but at the same time from brown's perspective life was meaningless individual lives or meaningless what mattered was because this is the stubborn around this is the visionary brown and so finding out to harpers ferry makes a great splash in the headlines and pushed the nation further on the course towards the ultimate confrontation with slavery the fact that he's been captured and tried this is icing on the cake because this allows him to create his own martyrdom in a way that very few individuals were ever able to do

i'm so disappointed i'm ready and they were you know one of the remarkable things about brown is that he's virtually and nobody actually goes to kansas he's been involved in anti slavery organization is he has helped organize self defense groups of blacks to prevent being seized and the fugitive slave law making fifty he's got up to the adirondacks work with free blacks but he's a very minor figure he's published a few letters here and there an essay here and there ah but if you had surveyed the leaders of american abolitionist john brown would not have been the survey cancer if you had surveyed the leaders of american abolitionist and eighteen fifty five john brown would not have been on the survey he would've been unknown a year later he's actually famous moving towards

international fame it's truly remarkable and that i think is because he's out in kansas where things are coming to a head we are so much violence and he emerges as the scrum well even the leader i love the calvinists who are going to fight evil and see in kansas and he then becomes this genius at self promotion and are using red path to help him welcome oh yeah one of the remarkable things about britain is that before eating fifty five almost nobody had heard of him he published a few anti slavery letters and essays he'd been involved in a few organizations including organizing runaway slaves to protect themselves and working with free blacks in the adirondacks but by and large he's a nobody he goes to kansas and within a year he says he actually famous

moving towards international fame and he is the chrome well lean leader that has come out of kansas to defend freedom against the onslaught of the satanic slave owners and of course he then goes east and makes the most of this becomes one of the great self promoters of the you're up and he by this time has read path as his press agent to make it even better and it's truly remarkable that out of nowhere and john brown what's remarkable about brown is that in eighteen fifty five no one ever heard of him he had a backup what's remarkable about brown then at fifty five he is a very minor figure in the anti slavery movement he's organizing free blacks in the north alabama and he has worked with runaway slaves to organize self defense groups he's written a few letters at slippery papers a few essays but he's basically a nobody he goes to kansas and it

comes out of kansas year later as the scrum well you figure leading the forces of good the inheritors of the puritan calvinist tradition against the satanic slave owners were trying to destroy our freedom on the prairie it's truly remarkable transforming experience for brown and for american anti slavery ok and this is the i'm just thinking that you use it if you want it i had this fear this fear that the only thing we you new uses this hand and i will be forever embarrassing as david i have one he says ok fine the hard question is how brown yes you could not you could not debate slavery washington anywhere

one of the hard things of course was to figure out how brown got to beat brown was i wasn't because of his childhood was it because of his upbringing his parents and i think in the end it's a dead and discussion i kind of look at brown is the adults and the kind of reminds me of popeye i am what i am and that's all that i am and really in a sense a brown is very much that way he's very straightforward about who he is he tells people things and they think he's being literary or apocryphal he's being straightforward when he tells emerson that we should never violate the declaration of independence or the bible emerson assumes this is simply a literary technique but it's not brown believes it completely and he's ready to die for so he is what he is and that's all that he is and you have to take him in a sense at face value of course the caviar to that is he's also very evasive about what he's doing at times and so as they spy is not always clear

i know one of the hardest things for the scholarly history is to figure out how john brown got to be who he was was it because of his parents was that his upbringing was it something aspect of his internal personality i think it's again and discussion i think of brown as an adult kind of like popeye the sailor i am what i am and that's all i am and brown is very straightforward he is who he is it he hasn't discussed with emerson once where he tells emerson that you should never or disobey the cause the go he hasn't discussed with emerson once in which he says that we should never violate the bible or the declaration of independence and emerson thinks brown is speaking in a literary sense but brown

does not brown believes this he's ready to die for it he is who he is and that's part of his charisma it's part of his charm that he just bluntly says i am what i am and this is what i am and people back in and giving money to be who he is ok