Focus 580; Issues in Media and News

Well in this part of focus 580 we welcome back to the program a fellow who's been with us a few times here on the show Rick Kaplan who is former president of CNN USA. He's an adjunct professor of journalism at U of I. And now a couple times a year he's here and has been doing this for quite a few years spends a week working with journalism students. He's been in the news business for a while. He worked for CBS back in the days when Walter Cronkite was still doing the news that he spent quite a few years at ABC and worked on all of their flagship programs including World News Tonight and Nightline in August of 1997 he went to work for CNN and was there until recently when they parted company. And we're pleased to have him here and when you see here we talk about the media and the news coverage and I'm sure that we'll spend quite a bit of time here this morning talking about the election and how are there and you think so. You're your member that election. Sure but the election of 2000 still on it. Are you going to vote as I can tell as far as I know so questions are certainly welcome here in Champaign Urbana 3 3 3 9 4 5 5 and toll

free 800 to 2 2 9 4 5 5. Well thanks very much. I'm sorry that whoever scheduled me I have classes every hour and you know it's really funny because on paper it works out fine you have class from 10 to 11 then you do an interview from 11 to 12. But but there's less travel time. You're still over there in the Gregory Hall where we used to be. Right now we're here in the new building and while I was thinking that you might even just be next door in that in that the TV new project is generally considered or anyway well but I'm here when you're here so I'm glad to be here. So I was taking a look at some things having to do with election coverage and I want to ask you a fellow what. At Brookings Stephen Hess has been apparently throughout the campaign been looking at how the major networks the over the air networks ABC CBS NBC covered it and he has periodically been seen and we would call those the broadcasts that were not asked major network harden me the broadcast networks the over the air broadcast networks fair point

how they covered it and he his last report here it was up on the booking site. He took a look at the presidential campaign coverage on the over the air networks since Labor Day. And here's what he found first of all that on the the three major shows Peter Jennings Dan Rather and Tom Brokaw they had the fewest minutes of campaign news in their history which is something he said he hadn't expected. The other thing that he found was that that sound bytes now are the average length of candidate soundbites on the evening news is now seven seconds which is another all time low and that much of the news that they reported was negative was was looking at negative aspects of the campaign. Do you expect we're just going to get worse and worse. Well I mean that's Riddick you know it's embarrassing that report. It really is the I think people have started to lose their way a bit

and it's sad. It really is I think that look my position prior and current is simply that the more news there is we're just just look at it realistically for a minute the more news there is on an entertainment network the more news there is in the world the less money an entertainment network makes in fact the more news there is the more money they lose. The more news there is the more money cable news makes. So who's in the business. I mean it's like the entertainment networks are kind of like Amazon Dot com you know the more books they sell the more money they lose. So at some point I assume Amazon sells all the books and runs out of money but the. I think that's really embarrassing and I think Peter and Dan would be most embarrassed by it. On the other hand they're also most responsible for it. Because you start to get into a situation where in order to attract more viewers you think while their attention spans are shorter and you start to degrade your own coverage and I think that's a huge mistake. Your core audience those people who will watch you

whether there's a lot of news or not they really want the news and they want to be talked down to and they don't want to be twisted they don't want to be pushed and pulled in all of us they just want you know kind of give me the news I make up my mind and they're not interested in seven second soundbites and in a campaign like this one they sure would have wanted more coverage not less. If you look what's going to be more condemning if he went the extra step would not be that there was less campaign coverage on than ever before. It would be what replaced it. Because if what replaced it was the fact that we had extraordinary violence on the West Bank in the Middle East. I mean I don't know how many presidential campaigns have had that kind of an amazing story that would dominate news as well. At the same time I don't know the answer to that but if what replaced it was a bunch of Eye on America and American agendas and a buncha sappy stuff that they think somehow sucks and younger viewers as if that were should be a priority then you know it's fine on them. I guess one thing I would I could say about the study is it would looked at another issue where

news media has has been heavily criticized and that is. Are we looking at strategy. What's often called the horse race. Or are we looking at issues and once again it seems like mostly what they spent their time talking about was the horse race. Well if you're talking about the Evening News I think most of the time they should spend on the horse race and some time devoted to the two issues. This would be popular programming but I think the magazines and specials should devote more time to the issues. You know there's a place to turn for certain kinds of news you don't turn to the Sunday Magazine for the horse race you turn to the Sunday Magazine for the issues you don't turn to the front page of a newspaper for the issues of those some issue stories start there. You have to go inside for the bulk of it. I mean it just where you tune in. I think there has to be a good healthy mix of both and both and this was a case where in all the polling it was very clear that people cared about the

issues because they didn't particularly care for either of the guys. The other well another thing that that's that's interesting is that apparently when you look at the over the air broadcast networks and where they're where they're really spending most time talking about the candidates that coverage seems to have really shifted to the morning magazines and now they have all they have these primetime vehicles that they're using but programs like 20 20 and 60 Minutes those shows they're not doing it either if anybody is doing it. It's GOOD MORNING AMERICA Good Morning America today. And they're not doing it in a particularly serious way. It's not a great state of affairs and but I'll tell you this is a real interim period for news and for television in general. We're as we approach kind of the era where there's a convergence of the web and television and radio and print and it you know it all starts to kind of converge on your video unit at home which right now is made up of a separate television and computer screen at

one at some point soon it will be merged. You're going to be able to I think Access far more information you're going to be kind of able to learn much more not be victimized as you were as it is by little tiny sound bites and and shallowness I think that that the world of information is going to change quite radically. You know the Web itself people are good people go to the web for much more content much more substance we used to worry that we're people reading anymore. Well if you're going to go to the Web you're reading I mean because there's not a whole lot else to do on the web but read. And I think you're going to find that in this next generation of information which may be here within five years you're going to find I think that enhanced television and what is offered on the on your video unit you're going to be able to do a much better job of. Being informed and learning about the substance and networks are going to have to give you the option of going the heavy substantive route or you're not going to go to their website or their

station or their whatever it will be called. Well are do you think that CBS NBC ABC are going to continue to do nightly newscasts and it will that will some point I'm not sure Jerry. I'm really not sure. Look I think the future for newspapers and I'll get to TV quickly. I think the future for newspapers is that there's no such thing anymore as the morning and evening editions I think newspapers are alive. I think you'll go in when you want to download your newspaper or read your newspaper you'll get the up to the minute newspaper with reporters constantly updating their stories on that. I think when you want the news you're going to get the up to the minute news right now. You know you kind of get Dan Rather or Peter Jennings or Tom Brokaw live at 5:30 here and if you if you're on the West Coast you get him live on tape. It's a three hour old show in the future you're going to be getting the news from ABC News and CBS News and NBC News up to the minute. Now maybe there won't be a Dan Rather to deliver it maybe it won't be delivered in such a way but I think it's going to matter that you get it up to the minute minute and has it. So I don't know what the form of those newscasts is going to be it's actually one things

and the study from in the near future. But I but I think you're going to access information differently and I don't think you're going to see the three broadcast networks all of them at least involved in news. Our guest this morning Rick Kaplan his former President CNN USA. He's also adjunct professor of Journalism University of Illinois a couple times a year he spends a week here working with students and he's usually here on the show when he's here. So it's always hard Ed. Well actually yeah it has things like that last year really has been that well it's every I mean I've been doing teaching for eight years and a professor for three. And it starts from the second year my daughter was a student here and she's 25. I mean it's 10 years close to 10 years. OK well we always you look the same here. Parents are in a little while we were witnessing her hair. Well we got a call here others are welcome 3 3 3 W I L L toll free 800 1:58 W while I'm calling here in Freeport line for Hello.

I got two general statements to me. First of all I read years ago that Walter Cronkite was mostly tied up with the CIA. Sort of you know. Back to Agent of them working with them and also more recently Dan Rather the Texan broadcaster and CBS Evening News you know he was sent over to Afghanistan. Well the Afghan rebels are fighting the Soviet forces and said that he they demonstrated to him how they took care of Russian prisoners they shot one in front of him. And I mean that getting pretty close to the war situation I'd say. And your general during the Gulf War you had that censorship area heavily censored media by the military. Then media just kind of went

along with them. Correct. I have no I mean having worked with Walter and worked with Dan I don't know what to say to you about those first two comments but as for the less comment there was censorship in a war in a war there is always censorship by by the military that you're kind of the guest of if you will and what you do and what we did and I was at ABC at the time is you just tell people that this report has been handled by American military censors. And if something was if a piece of video was censored out you sometimes put up a blank. Black screen and just say censored by American military censors. So you tell people when you're in that situation you'll notice that when the. Reporting came out of Baghdad where it was not only heavily censored but most often they sent minders with you so you didn't have a private moment. You would come clean on that with your viewers and your listeners as well saying that I was you know

I'm here I was taken here by Israel by Iraqi minders who have been who have also censored my reporting. And I'm only able to tell you this and that. At least then people know to be questioning about what they're hearing. Oh I understand that. Oh right you are Saddam Hussein picked up the reports from United States. Oh absolutely they all watch CNN in fact CNN Yeah the first time I met Saddam Hussein I was working for ABC and I walked in. And I won't go through the rigmarole you have to go through to see him and he came up to me and I'm thinking oh God what is he going to say. Or you know him because he skis. It's not that he's intimidating but you do have certain misgivings when you meet him and he looked to me said did I know Bobbie Battista. That's his first question and I said You mean the CNN anchor woman. And he said yes. I said no actually I work at ABC I don't know or he says I watch her every day. So.

You know. And she. I mean that the media is kind of lean lean and in that you know my name troll you knowing very well that worldwide such worldwide coverage of all events you know knowing everything I mean meeting hearing could be used for mind control I saying. I hope not. Well I think for the common We've got others certainly have the option to call if you have questions come at you and talk to our guest Rick Kaplan you can give us a call 3 3 3 wy a little toll free 800 1:58 doubly while the networks have at CNN included have come under some criticism for eggs just low level criticism. And all this business of calling what happened in Florida first going for Gore then calling it Bush then saying we don't know and now I think even you know we're talking about some people and some people in Congress are talking about having hearings. Will this change anything next time around for I hope it will change.

My own personal rule I'm not about to sit here and tell you that well if I had been at the controls at CNN that night that they would have made a wrong call. I'm not telling you that at all. But I am telling you that it was always a policy of mine I didn't like to call races before all the polls in the state are closed even when it was clear that the that the the Panhandle wouldn't change the vote if that was the case. I still don't want to call it because. While there is no evidence that an early call in a race changes the number of people who show up at the polls and quite and quite frankly there's an enormous amount of evidence that it doesn't. But even with that said I just didn't want to call a race till till till all the polls in the state have closed. And there well that's one thing I want to ask you about because I had thought that some years back the networks had all because there was criticism of that. They had all said OK we're not going to do that anymore and this this time around is the first time that I remember in some time them calling States before the polls had closed. Well actually they had always close. I mean if Florida sea of Florida was too close to call to

start with then they wouldn't have called it and you would never have known it or if it was such a runaway as it had been a number of other elections than they would have called it you just would have known it and very few other states like I think Indiana is also a split time zone perhaps during every election times but it's split in such a way that less than 80 percent of the polls would be closed when the first time zone came. So you couldn't call Indiana Toll all the you know you'd have to really wait until the Central Time Zone had cleared for the poll closings because not enough polls closed in the eastern time zone. So there's very few states that that rule actually impacts on. But Florida was one of them. But it's a mistake it's a terrible mistake and although somebody mentioned said something very interesting to me if the Palm Beach voters. And I am not by the way I am opposed to a revote. I said to somebody I've read the Constitution numerous times and never found the word Mulligan anywhere in the Constitution. So I'm not for everybody or anything like

that. And I think that when the recounts done and I think Governor Bush is going to be ahead that Gore ought to just say congratulations President Bush spread and elect Bush and I'm going to be here to support you. That's the right thing to do I think. However somebody said well what happens if the if the Palm Beach voters really did kind of screw up the fact is what it would have meant was that that the. That the early poll was right. The early call was right because what an early call can't make up for is a whole mess of voters making a mistake or thinking they're voting for Gore and really voting for someone else and voiding their ballots. But with all that said and done that simple fact is this you don't call or a stall the polls are closed then. And I have. I don't know what information the voter service had handed out to all the networks everyone has the same numbers but I would bet you there had to be an error in that because even in the wild even with the Palm Beach voters not making the errors they made are even if whether they did or did make errors it's still too close a race to call and it has been my experience because these guys who call the races they would rather

die than make a mistake. And so there must that I mean they had they were misled for one reason or another and I would bet that and I would hope it would come out that when the numbers are shown to people that there either is an enormous error in the voter survey. But I think it'll make the networks far more wary you know you can't get if the only thing a network has is the trust it has with its public. And you heard that which they have done clearly with this election and with their reporting of it they're going to take great pains to make sure they don't get near the line next time. But I also hope that Americans understand out of this election that when somebody says your vote counts it's not just rhetoric your vote counts. Let's go to the next caller in line which would be line number two we have someone in southeastern Illinois. Hello. Yes I do I get into it. We yeah. Election business except I would say without the paling is fair there were three opportunities for the Democrat Party to

clear up the point to confuse any confusing ballot in them and in that Palm Beach area if not being out they could have mounted an educational campaign that at the end saying you know vote fine Troll 3. No he's exactly right and in fact the bell it was approved by an election commissioner who was a Democrat. Yeah that's what I say they had three to three opportunities in and that kind of campaign is often done in the case of a referendum which is worded in such a way that it's confusing and you think you're voting against it you vote no when you're really voting for it that we have an election here I mean or an educational blitz it will say you know you're going to you want to vote yes on this if you're against it that sort of right. But what I wanted to ask you about wise are they handling of stories where they are and I think this particular driver know about this. Printed but the electronic media and

doing a story where they can't really tell the story and there would to have been two examples. Few years one was Clinton and Monica where they start of jumps around that story and didn't really tell you what it was until finally you kind of gotten bits and pieces that it was salacious. I mean which they could have reported right off if they had wanted to I mean. Right or you got something about a cigar being in it. But I mean basically that was it. But you know they repeated and reported the story but you didn't really know what the story was because they weren't reporting the story. The second one is with George W. Bush where the story came out during the campaign that he had used. I don't have a prayer that bad language in front of an open mind. Value did they didn't say what the bad language was so you didn't know what it was a bugger ism for granted there was an idea what it was I mean and get going anywhere from something involving feces to G-d and

man. I r and oftentimes in a case like that and then to think of the worst words you know and think that's what was said when it finally came out I mean I got I mean I heard it from somewhere that what he had done was he heard it from a journalist as a major league director lower case he used his short words to fill in the words of the last two words I used but I know he and I do and he used the bugger isn't that what do you do what words it was your policy every bit reporting stories where you mean did you get cutesy and sort of skirt around them or did you come out with some kind of gov language that let people know what really had occurred or we had long conversations about what language was allowable and what language was not and arrived. An acceptable and completely descriptive solution so that you knew what we were talking about and

people were extraordinarily uncomfortable I mean there was a enormous discussion and we finally agreed that we could use it. I would come to I was uncomfortable then and I'm uncomfortable now and I don't know if this were allowed on the station or not but in discussing a certain male organ and there was a debate that went on forever about whether we could say that word. And it's one of the things I think Americans and journalists and American journalists and everybody else just got kind of really disgusted with because what we did is we crude it up the airwaves we made the dialogue in the language coarser and not more pleasant. And it was not fun to report it and it was not fun to deal with it. And it was not fun I'm sure to listen to it. And it was pretty disgusting and I think in some ways you know clearly the president is to blame for this and clearly the House impeachment managers are to blame for coarsening the language as well because I don't think

there's any reason they have to dump like the. Damn what I did that a good example was President Clinton and Monica Lewinsky but I mean even in the story like what George W. Bush said in front of an open mike that was bad language you know I mean when I saw that report and that was pretty well described was it. Yeah well I've evidently missed that so my first few times I read it it was not really specified. Well I actually think that in the reports that I heard that we had from NPR they played it and it was you had to listen closely but you could you could hear what he said it was I don't I don't even think we bleeped it. I go the extra yard to say to you. And so I mean this is you know how many do you know anybody who has never used that word to describe someone they don't like. If you do he's probably already sitting on the Supreme Court but.

Well I just wondered because it is a matter that my I didn't get the NPR broadcast of it. I mean that's what I heard and it is a problem but I think we're out of time so you can sort of move it into scholarly language that will get the idea across right sent people scurrying to their dictionaries but I don't mean it. That's not be necessarily crude. OK thank you all right well let's go on we got another caller here in northern Illinois line number three. I yes I was interested in where you always hear the liberal media the liberal media. But I was surprised how close the vote was especially that Gore won the popular vote because especially the last two weeks. What I thought I saw a lot of is or it's too close to call it's too close to call but if Gore loses it's because of like Nader or something like that. And the other places talked about how in evitable

that they had what the Bush people kept trying to build it was inevitable it was inevitable. And I thought that planted everything because you could see George Stephanopoulos going on about well if Gore lost. And even the Slate magazine Michael Kinsley had an article about why you know who should be blamed. And the headlines would be Gore has more money which is really a distortion because they have to read the second paragraph to see that the Republicans had you know 25 million dollars more. And I notice that you just said you know once the ballots are in on Friday and they come up with something Gore should really think about you know. Being that he was and you're automatically assuming that all those ballots are going to be military and they're going to be for Bush. And I've noticed that a lot what you comment on the media slant. Well why don't I just comment on what I said which is that I'm saying what I said because

the because the governor has a lead now slight though it be. And if I look at the way this is my own sample precinct if you will key precinct. If I look at the way absentee and overseas ballots came in four years ago Bob Dole won I think 65 percent of those ballots in a race where he got creamed in Florida generally and historically those ballots are very strongly Republican Moreover if you listen to one of the first compromises offered up by James Baker it was well why don't we just count those overseas ballots and whatever it turns out to be. That is what it turns out to be and I thought the Gore people almost had a coronary over that. So you are that the general wisdom is that the gov. I mean if Gore can't get a large enough plurality out of the machine and hand votes then then it's over. Yeah and I agree with that. It's just that. When you know like the

Bush people we all know you know like Bush might win in the general election. You know when all the votes in the general election well the general wisdom was that one could win electoral one could win popular but it was the opposite way. It was actually the conventional wisdom that Gore would win the electoral vote and Bush would win the popular vote and it turned out to be the opposite. Right. But what we in general it doesn't make any difference whether it was Andy Shaw in Chicago or anyplace it was always you know the Bush people are concerned not I don't think anybody ever said Gore might win the popular vote. It says you have Gore winning is automatically you know no matter how they look they're not saying how many people in Israel voted. And you can even buy. Bother to mention that you didn't mention that there was a salary increase for the enlisted men and I agree with you. You know you're going with the what the odds are but those last two weeks. That is it there was always it's too

close to call but of course it's too close. It's just refreshing to hear somebody call in talk about the conservative biased media. So it's great to hear your call. All good and all right thank you very much. Well let me let me ask it a slightly different question but it's sort of the same question. I think that somehow some Democrats were looking at the coverage and were saying that the news media was spending more time looking at what Mr. Gore said and pointing out misstatements. Then they did look at what Mr. Bush said and pointing out misstatements or looking at what his record was in Texas. Do you think that what do you think about Al Gore's you know Bush pretty much kept to script so there wasn't much to say about the governor because he kept saying pretty much the same thing and Gore made a whole mess. Some misstatements so the vice president left himself open for that when he picked Governor Bush for something he said which was calling which was

saying basically that so security was not a federal program well that's of course not what the governor said. And you know it's a little tough and journalists don't want to play that kind of silly game. If course if politicians want to go ahead and put commercials on the air and sit there and say and this candidate voted against orphans and against old people and against sick people and wanted everyone to die and you you know the logic should tell you and it's probably not exactly what this guy voted for this woman voted for. I mean if they want to go ahead twist things that way that's fine but we don't generally want to play that game the fact is Bush went around the country with a very narrow campaign he had his issue or a set of issues and his beliefs and he did what he did and and you know Gore was kind of everything in all over and left himself open to make mistakes and made a few. And look in the end both sides are probably unhappy with the way they were covered but the election is a tossup and life is life. I see where we go next. Carphone Let's do that line

three. Hello can you hear me. Yes. Morning guys. Morning. I have a car phone or it's not really a question of just wanting to know what your or your comments would be I think. Time for media reporters to become licensed and to be held accountable for the content that they release and I'd like to know what you think about that and how close is the industry to having a steak knife in order for a person to be employed by a TV station radio station or paper or even conduct news on her website. Well I'm totally I'm totally opposed to licensing journalists it's a First Amendment right. And I would like to see the government get in the licensing so that only certain people are eligible to for the benefits of freedom of the press on the other hand if you don't think journalists are accountable for what they say then I don't know where you live and

because the truth of the matter is journalists are totally accountable for what they say and if you get a journalist who says the wrong things or makes mistakes or network that does the wrong thing or makes mistakes you're going to find people tune out of that network or tune out of that website there's a whole bunch of people who were the taste is sure for a long long time and when after they start to make enough mistakes you don't hear about their websites or their names anymore. I think people who are boosters of the Internet would be horrified at the idea that you have to have a license for you can have a website. And that's the sort of one of the beauties of the Internet there that's actually right in. You know and you know in the end if anything needs a little reason it would be the Internet right now. Well we have several of the callers I hope that respond to the question the call this go to Belgium line number one you know tell me since Tell me your common people are calling and making comments today and are echoing the thing that I've talked to you several times the force or on the social media seems to make it their own media. I've said it to you many many times at least

twice I've called in and it ended up pointed out exactly these people say you report the news you know in a way that really influence the news whether it's bias one way or the other with the Simpson case. When John Glenn went into space and we totally forgot about a horrible hurricane last summer our summer before last it was Monica. Now it's the election you know the talking heads just continue to do this same thing beat us to the facts that they're really not even sure of themselves and we get to make them make an impression and they cause that difference and this is an example this election is exactly sample of what's happened from the last caller where I don't think it should be licensed. But there should be a greater deal of accountability there. What there is for sure. Thanks very much. All right well I guess that I guess that the criticism and some longstanding criticism is that were that the news

media have too much power to set the agenda and that we pick out any any given day. There may be 10 or 20 or 30 things that maybe should have coverage but we pick one or two and we obsess about those things until we get tired of them and then we pick something else and we obsess about those things and maybe they are the most important things but they're pretty much that. That's pretty much the nature of the American public and the fact of the matter is Americans are much more interested in the top lead stories of the day if you will. And that's what they spend their time doing Americans generally get what they want. That's where Beverly Hillbillys was on for a long time. And Green Acres and all the rest of that. That's when people start criticizing you know network television that's kind of like you know you have the ultimate control turn it off change the channel stop listening to that Anchorman stop listening to that network. That's how people vote. All right we got about 10 minutes left with Rick Kaplan former president CNN USA. He was here visiting the campus as he has now for a number of years a couple times during the year when students are here. He comes and works with journalism students and then he always comes and talks with us

about news media. Your questions are welcome 3 3 3 9 4 5 5 toll free 800 2 2 2 9 4 5 5 2 Chicago. Line number four. Hello. Hi there good morning Mr. Kaplan for us. Thanks for taking some time out to take some questions. Good morning. A couple of the two points and they're not related but feel free to comment on them. First I am a little concerned a lot concern. I think increasingly a lot of the most important issues of the day seem to be requiring increased by no technical knowledge or expertise to really understand them. And I think frequently given the short amount of time especially on commercial radio commercial television because of those things those aren't covered by just a couple of them. Examples I think of things that have come to the last couple of weeks. Legal issues defining what it means to have an arbitrary and capricious standard of review economics issues whenever the employment rate is discussed and there's no

discussion of what numbers are left out like a natural rate of unemployment. Maybe that isn't explained very readily so people get these numbers on how to deal with things with polling numbers and the methodology of the poll is not explained very much I think with the exception of that well frankly other than maybe the News Hour With Jim Lehrer and I think on stations like NPR we have regular reporters working a regular beat and extra time it takes to explain those background things I think a lot of those issues are glossed over and I think that even in the short amount of time they've gotten the seven second sound bite like you were discussing even that time is it's it does more harm than good because I think those background issues are so important. So I don't know it seems to me that reporters are going to have to have increased technical knowledge to be able explain these things to us. I think that's right. I think that you get into a situation now for instance just to pick up on one of the points you mentioned. You have a you have numbers come out and they deal with salary inflation when the government publishes its numbers oh look at this there was no salary inflation last year. Well

an economics reporter or business reporter ought to know that in the government's computor computation of that number they don't include. Stock options and bonuses. And if you were a business reporter you'd know that a major part of everyone's compensation or a good deal of the executive compensation now in business is stock options and bonuses so in fact that flat inflation is probably even a double digit inflation. So you're right I mean you're there you know the experts I think you're going to see I think you're going to see a difference I think this is a real interim period for news and for television and for cable and for radio and for print. And you know I think we will soon enter a far more disciplined in in and detail world of information. Maybe I could follow up just with a quick question on this and then I'll try related about maybe not really a comment in there as well and you can comment on that as well. As someone who's training journalists do you see do you think up a degree in journalism is the thing

people should be should be procuring or would a degree in economics or history or you know mathematics or statistics be a better background for these types of things. And the other comment I was saying applies to listen if we're moving to an age where like you said increasingly it's going to be less turn on CBS and watch Dan Rather as my talking head but download my news. Do you think that maybe accountability or trustworthiness. These mass media outlets would go down. Now I turn on television. Rightly or wrongly I think that the public reaction is Well there's Peter Jennings reading in the news I'm holding him accountable and that others are facing a presence and a personality. People link on to either accept or reject and the kind of measure there are. Well you've made fabulous points actually yeah. OK I'll hang up and listen to you and what I take. What I tell my students in fact just before I got here the last question I got in the in the class that I was in was about what to major in and I said well I'm an economics

political science major and I actually don't think it's very important to major in journalism or communications. I say that knowing that people in the communications school here who I adore and who do a fantastic job are probably sticking pins in my doll right now because you need to get an education in and as long as the you you buttress that degree with some good solid instruction. Will subjects you know I fold my cards for a while in terms of accountability I have a real problem with the lack of accountability on the web and like you say it's kind of nameless faceless. But what I think will happen as the web integrates and as it gets broader is that it won't necessarily be Peter Jennings anymore but you will hold the ABC brand accountable. The CNN brand the CBS brand the whatever other brand you're tuning into accountable or you're going to end I think you'll find that just like some websites have died a quick death because they lost their their credibility. It may be a Peter Jennings in a webcast or maybe all kind of digitally put together.

I mean there's a whole new world out there we haven't solved the problems of that kind of accountability but certainly you're going to hold the brand accountable for its accuracy and and that might speak well for companies like CNN ABC NBC and CBS and the rest too. You have some experience with it and are in the best position to protect the accuracy and fairness of what they do. On to another caller Abana this is line number two. This is the most caller. Yeah I think you're right. I'm like I'm sorry but I'm not going to get them all in. With regard to the butterfly ballot My understanding is and I think PBS did on NPR did a pretty good job of reporting this is that the it doesn't meet the state law with regard to how the bill should be set up. I think the just pardon me for interrupting but I think subsequently I've heard that the state the state election commission or some somebody ruled on that and in fact ruled that it was legal.

Yeah they had state election commission took a look at the ballot and it's a democratically controlled group and they approved. They said it was OK. So that's I guess that issue is off the table. Oh it's. I think that the average person often doesn't pick up on what might be confusing to people if you take a look at our own voting system here in Illinois and in Champaign County. And there is a pencil that's attached to the balloting. The thing that holds the cards. And there's also a stylus the pencil is attached on the right hand side. Most people are right handed. And if you work at a polling place you'll find that throughout the day no matter how many signs you put up or how many times you tell people you will find people trying to vote with a pencil and the pencil doesn't make any holes in the in the ballot. I worked at a polling place and I've worked several times and a lot of times at the end of the day when we count the ballots we don't count the votes because count the

ballots make sure we have the same number of applications of ballots for each color of ballot etc.. Not often somebodies belum doesn't have any holes punched in it at all. We had somebody who voted on his punch ballot with a pencil. I've had people of all ages get confused by this. Seems to be often some people who are elderly but it's also I've also had younger people say oh well how am I supposed to vote in here. Even though this stuff outside to help people it still is. I think it's going to be one of the outcomes of what's happened here which is that they're going to have to improve the way we vote. They're going to have to whether it's going to more different machines or working with some kind of online system or. But I think that what we're on we're discovering is that exactly what you're finding that some of these systems are either old antiquated too difficult too problematic. Everyone should be able to vote without really you know it shouldn't be

brain surgery to cast a ballot. Well the other thing that we need is more and a variety of ages of election judges people who often are willing to do this are often retired and if you stay doing it for a long time you can get to be quite elderly doing this. And it takes it's a very very long day. And although people get paid it's still as I said a very long day and it would help to have more people who are younger. I would take the time off from work or take the time I will and whatever else they're doing to help staff the polling places and you know that. There's no question about that. And further as I know you seem like someone who probably has Who does this. I mean nobody is going to take that job for the money. See whether they get paid or not it's nominal. Thank you thank you. Let's say we'll get at least one more person here that will be another band of color line 3. Well a slight correction on the absentee fat balloting at least the last Florida election. The margin was actually 5

percent which is probably very little for most of the states. And that's as reported by NPR this morning. They were talking about your guests reported that it's 65 35 and it wasn't that great a difference. So it's not a slight to certainty when the absentee ballots as it might seem. I think though I was talking about the county not the state the statewide difference was 5 percent the county wide difference there was 65 percent. That's so well so I guess you're both right. Possibly. OK. Thank you. Was there another point you want to. Well one quick one would be that there are four counties which were supporters that requested recounts in it have been completed. Giving minor additions I believe the total. So. So I don't see what's so exceptional about a recount of the other four

counties that are in question now I mean recounts are a standard part of election procedure. Oh this one was requested exactly the same type in New Mexico by the Bush people where just about THE POINT we're going to have stop on it was and the last thing we can say about that other then. Well is there a reason you know the feeling is that the place where there's a will there's a difficulty for people. And why the recount might be different in some of the Democratic strong areas is that where the Buchanan name comes up and that is right next to Gore it's Gore whose total it's Gore whose line looks strange not Bush's. Well in any case where we've used our time to say thanks recapping my clock and buy time back again next spring next quarter. All right we'll see you then.