Governor's Town Meeting on Education

These students will graduate from high school in the next millennium. Does our present school system make curriculum preparing them for tomorrow. How do we send educational priorities were Wyoming. Join host Jabo Gara and Wyoming Public Television News governor Geringer and other state officials report their findings. Welcome to a special forum on education brought to you by Wyoming Public Television. In an era when almost anything paid for with our taxes has been called into question. There is one service the general public still considers the responsibility of government and that's public education. It's a debt to our children. We feel obligated to pay. But there are many issues surrounding our public schools that call us fierce debate in our communities and our state knowing that Governor Jim Geringer and various elected officials and education administrators have held a series of meetings around Wyoming this fall. The idea behind these seven town meetings was to get a sense of citizen's priorities and education.

You don't have to talk about it with me is the governor Jim Geringer. Good evening. I'm also here on my left is Wyoming Superintendent of Public Instruction due to catch Bill. Good evening. Welcome to the governor's right. University of Wyoming president Dr. Terry Roark. Welcome to the superintendent's left is Casper College president Dr. Leroy Strauss. He's also chair of the community colleges president's council. Jeff welcome and to his left is Representative Jim Hagman of Fort Laramie chairman of the House Education Committee. Welcome. Well Governor Geringer listening to all of these people get up and tell you what's right and what's wrong about education in Wyoming. I have a feeling that must be a little bit like going back to school for you. So may I ask you the question of my daughters which is what have you learned. What have you learned and what are you going to do with it. I guess that's the point of a lot of these meetings. The expectations for education are high. We've learned that people place a high value on education for young people not only in the

public schools but higher education as well. And of course that's represented here tonight. The Constitution for Wyoming's government requires a free public education for the youngsters K through 12 and then it has this little phrase in there that says the university among other things shall be as nearly tuition. The tuition should be as nearly free as possible and we've discovered that free is a relative term for education levels. No the town meetings and we've had one statewide meeting in June. Seven town meetings and counting the one in Riverton and a wrap up meeting yet to go at the University of Wyoming. We've understood that the expectations of the public are quite varied that health needs recreational needs. Second chance opportunities quite quite a lot of that is expected. Expected in addition to the academic training for all of the public institutions that we hear

it's hard to summarize it in a single word. But for public schools for instance kindergarten through 12th there's still a high value placed on local control. But yet with the other expectations that are out there through the accreditation process the standards that are set by the community the expectations that are implied through funding or lack of funding control is even a term that that's a relative term much like free tuition at the university that there is a desire for local control but not all local control is local. I may have to just react as we go around the circle here tonight as to what we think were the most essential things that we gain from the public hearings but as much as anything we learn that people are not bashful. And while many people have a high degree of satisfaction with being able to participate directly with their elected officials and those who would make policy for our universities or community colleges public education continuing education workforce education business people spoke up

homeschoolers attended. So we've seen the full range of priorities all the way through not just the the element called K through 12. I think one generalization I want to make before we begin going around the circle to hear more about this is I notice that many of the people who speak get up and talk about things they want more of. And I recall that as you began these series of meetings one of the things you were talking about was the possible necessity of cuts have less of. We're looking for the cuts. And I guess given that education as you've said is the number one priority is that in fact the mission here to find places to cut as much as anything education needs to look at different ways of delivery where there might be other programs within state government that could be cut reduced eliminated or whatever education predominantly needs to look at new ways to deliver a quality product. And if we can't just eliminate programs at whatever level of higher education what are the alternative ways that we can teach. And one of the things that

has become obvious in the public schools in particular is how much the community expects. That's not education of academics that the medical needs health needs correcting societal problems. So much of what used to be done in the home or in the community now is expected of the schools. And if we don't change that we won't be able to afford even the academic part of education. So the challenge that I feel an issue that most of the town meetings is how we we as community people not just me as the governor or the superintendent but how are we as an overall community of Wyoming react to what is being pushed into the schools. Schools are having to correct this just to be able to teach it if they're expected to do too much more of it. They're not going to be able to teach effectively. So those are some of the challenges is not just a matter of cut. It's a matter of redirect how we're delivering the product. Let's turn to the superintendent and see if you heard the same message or are people asking for this tremendous array of

services now from the schools. I think they are for sure. But this really was an exciting opportunity for the education community ranging with lifelong learning the full continuum to go before citizens in Wyoming and speak to them about our strategic plans. The focus that we've planned and then to get input back from those people if we were on target and I would gather from what we heard that most citizens Wyoming education in Wyoming is on target and is about the things that they think are important. What I heard at every town meeting was the importance of building partnerships and that for sure starts with the parents schools and parents have to build a very strong partnership. Parents are the first teachers we have to build that partnership. An exciting thing to me was the partnership that we have all built when we've been out in this process and I think that's what Wyoming citizens expect and it's what the governor is talking about is he saying let's look at ways to use resources differently. I think

everyone in every community has found new ways to link with the community college system and to link with the University of Wyoming. And I think that will be something that will be an outgrowth of these town meetings which will go on forever and I think we've built a new sense of communicating. We all know what our job is now. And I think we're going to just kick it off with some great partnerships that had Dr. Strassmann or maybe talking a little bit about what you are hearing about the community colleges. You might also give us a little sketch of how the whole system fits together these different institutions and different levels of education where the community colleges fit in. Try to use the term seamless education just a moment ago and I think we would have to agree that in and in and in a word it's a unified system. In other words none of us can be successful without each other. We all have to pull together. It's important for our community college students to be able to go to the university and succeed in a backward level or graduate level study program. The only way they can do that is to come to us well prepared at the community college level from the public

schools. And I think what we're seeing now is a tremendous amount of emerging collaborative programs Judis using the term partnering. But we've heard in these community meetings and I've only been privileged to attend two of them. But the tremendous number of formalized agreements in terms of tech prep cooperative programs collaborative other kinds of arrangements through both these agreements or other kinds of interactive communication networks that are being set up. And so I think what we are seeing is the fact that all levels of education whether it's K through 12. Indeed if we even go below that to early childhood development the need for children to have some kind of educational experience before they arrive at the public school system and carrying that right on through graduate level studies at university. I think what we're seeing is a real knitting together if you will of this entire system. And in doing so we end up sharing resources and working together and trying to find out how we can assist each other and how we can do that more effectively and indeed more efficiently which we're going to have to do.

Now let's go to the to the last are the top to loose institution on the list if that's the University of Wyoming and Dr. Roarke you have I've heard you speak recently about some of the problems you face in dealing with budget shortfalls or budget difficulties. Talk a little bit about how the university is going to do under this regime. Well I want to back up for just a minute sheriff because I heard something also that I know the rest of the group heard but it hasn't been mentioned yet and there's a tremendous pride in the educational establishment in Wyoming and it's been expressed over and over and over again whether it's K-12 whether it's community colleges or UW the it it's been from people who have a long lineage of residence in Wyoming but it's also been from people who left the state of Wyoming and perhaps came back to finish their education or it's people who have decided to come

to Wyoming that this is the place they want to live and raise their children. And often it's because of the educational system. And so one of the things that I heard over and over again was we've got a very good system of exceptionally high quality. Let's keep it that way let's don't let it a road. And I think also these linkages that Judy was referring to is partnerships. I also heard a lot of sharing of things that we might have sharing of communication networks in particular but also other things that we might share with business and industry to help them. So I think our challenge is to keep the quality keep the pride that people have in our system serve people in perhaps new ways and perhaps do it in ways that are more economical than we've been doing it at the present time.

One of the things that I'm going to do at the university very very shortly. But it's a more long term project is to establish what I'm going to call for now because I don't really like the word re-engineering Committee. And so what can we do differently. Give you one example. Is it really necessary that everybody from the department head through the dean through the vice president for finance and administration through myself and two other people I can't even remember signed off on when we hire somebody. I don't think so. I think we can do with less than eight signatures and you know you might say well that's a small thing but if in the process of that plus many other things we could do our job do it better and maybe with fewer people that would be worth doing. Now I've heard some of the same positive comments that you mentioned but I've also heard a little line of anxiety running through some of the comments as well and that's anxiety

about the preparing of these children to go forth into the world and compete in the marketplace. Anxiety among faculty about workloads and about salary. So let's The positive is definitely there but let's hear a little response to some of the problems you face because when people express those things clearly we're hearing now that we can't throw money at them anymore. There's got to be other ways of dealing with them. How do you respond to some of those concerns and your own expressed concerns about proper pay for faculty and things like that. Well I think that's something that we have addressed and this last by any AM We have increased tuition and that increased tuition has gone to faculty and staff salaries. We have saved money that would have reverted back to the state at the end of the biennium. And we have been allowed and we appreciated that to apply that to faculty salaries and we have done some reallocation internally and taken funds from certain activities and applied that to faculty salaries.

Our challenge as we go into the next by any team is how do we maintain those and how do we actually move ahead on salaries so that we can reach the goal that the governor has said. And I think we've all agreed is a reasonable goal that our our faculty and staff are paid at a level which retains the high quality so that our students can benefit from those. Those kinds of people being on our faculty and staff in Wyoming. And that's the challenge that we face and that challenge will certainly come to the legislature. So all I can ask Representative Hagman What do you see happening. How much in concert with what you hear from administrators in the education system. Will your committee and the legislature in general be in terms of providing the funds that they need and in terms of supporting the kinds of programs they're talking about. Well of course that's always been my belief that the most important thing that the state does is educate people. You know that's

the most positive thing we do in this state is with our public schools in our community colleges and university. No matter how little or how much a person takes out of that school. He's gained something from it. It's going to make his life better. So I've always felt that was the most important thing we do. However the high road has changed a lot in the last two or three years always before especially first funding for public schools. The Education Committee was the one that passed the bill around and created the bill to fund the public schools create the foundation program and fund the foundation program. But about three years ago we changed that because we were having such a struggle to find enough money to do it. We did make it so that that goes through the appropriations committee now. So I rose change quite a lot. I don't know whether we've lost a lot of our Moxie on this thing or not it really worries me. And I think the people of this state faced the real threat of losing a lot of their moxie when we did this because appropriation be just doesn't have the time to listen to them.

We used to have quite a few meetings a year the education committee what the last couple of years we haven't and I think these meetings like the governors call these last meetings are all over the state kind of replaced the things we used to do. I'm really glad to see it replaced because I think the people of this state have a right to speak up on education. And I think they've done a good job of speaking up. Do you see a long term funding problem the shortfalls we've had in the foundation program 160 million a year and the sort of thing is this going to be a problem for the legislature to keep up with these things. Do we need to look at some changes in that system. Well the foundation program was first created as is now that was it was it was because of a court decision that made us so we had to equalize funding in this state up until that time the legislature put up Jolene's around 23 to 13 million year came out of the general fund for funding schools. At that time with the recapture that is when we took from the district every district in the state had to charge to 25 meals.

And some districts that was more money than they were entitled to. Of course that was recaptured that had to go back to the state to be spent to fund the foundation program. When we did that the race in this state was about a billion dollars and it was self-supporting. We never took any money from the general fund or any other source. But when the assessed valuation dropped to 6 billion then rather than the 8 billion that we had to use when we equalize the funding that's what created the shortfall. It isn't that we're spending all that much more money or that the cost of blown up that much but if we lost that two billion dollars in this valuation and that's what made the shortfall as far as school funding itself the classroom was set at 73000 the first year I was in the legislature. It's up now about 82000. There's another 10. Actually it's 92. But a lot of that is rolling into vocational money the actual changes up to 82 million which is 82000 which is about less than a 10 percent

increase over 13 years. So we haven't increased the percentage. We haven't increased the percentage on the funding. We do have a lot more students now than we did for when I first went in there was about 97000 and now it's going to drop down to 92 and now it's back a little over 100. So and of course all of that cost money. So those are what caused that it wasn't the fact that we are spending that much more money. It's a fact that we lost two billion dollars and assessed valuation and we also had more students. And for some people when we started talking about these big dollar figures it just was right by them and what they're thinking to themselves is you know what I want to know and what I want to talk about is the students themselves what kind of an education are kids getting. And I think Judy I'll turn to you with that question now. How do you think Wyoming students are stacking up in the world of students that we're producing from the public school system. Oh I think the national testing clearly shows that Wyoming students do very very well.

I'm reading scores the ATC scores. We're in the top 10 frequently in the top 2 or 3 in the country. And then students do well but I think what we have to look at is looking at all students in Wyoming because they're talking about a small percentage. If you talk about a city scores you're talking about only the kids who take that test so as we look at meeting the needs of all students I'm excited about the process that the legislature put into play when they created House bill 50 and began their accreditation process. Local school districts are writing performance standards nearly all the school districts have that completed. I would urge parents businesspeople to take a hike up to their superintendent's office and ask to look at make sure this is what you want the students in your district to to have mastery of right now school districts are working very hard at developing assessments. How do you know if the kids know what we want them to know. That sounds easy but maybe in Powell they want to use one type of an assessment.

Maybe they want to use another. Assessments are very sophisticated very varied. And so school boards and superintendents and administrators and faculty are taking a hard look at what they want. For proof that students have learned and mastered the common core of skill and knowledge then school districts have a responsibility to report that back to the local citizens in their school district. And this is all in the process and will be completed by 1997 and it will become a true basis for school accreditation to see if in fact they're measuring if they have developed assessments. And then you decide in your school what are the math scores this year on the assessment that you chose next year did they get better or did they get worse and will finally have something in place that we can have true accountability for because you can target you can look you can disaggregate the information and we'll have a clear picture of what kids in Wyoming are doing based on what we want them to do.

But you're talking also about accountability to the local folks at the state level. How much are you asserting requirements or needs things that children need to know to be equipped in today's world. We had we had a teacher get over one of the forums and say well I'm not a teacher I was a board member. Say what about accountability. I don't feel like I'm accountable to the state and seemed to want to be right. I have a suggestion on what one person recommended at a town forum and that was if a student has to take remedial English or math at university who should pay for it. This particular proponents in the school graduated that student should pay for any remediation that's required. In response to that another person stood up and said Well I think the student ought to pay half well now were not were you know we got an auction going anyway. The accountability then is implied to rest with not only the student who needs to take the initiative accountable accountability rests there but it also rests with the district who said they provided an education up to a standards

set by the local district when they come to the university and they can't pass a particular test or as we've heard from any number of employers around the state and particularly in the lower paying jobs I don't know if it's related to the pay that's that's attracting these particular students or what but they don't know how to read instructions I don't know how to make change they don't know how to take initiative. They lack a certain both education and work ethic. So we've heard accountability in a different way from employers where they say the product of some of our public schools for students not going off to college is not giving us a minimum standard that employers expect to see. So I think accountability rests more than just in Student Assessment. It rests with the ability to succeed in employment the ability to succeed in the community and that is a little bit longer a reach I think than what we test at the end of a school year. It looks on beyond that.

KERRY I heard you talk about giving the ACTU test when you enter the test when you graduate so you can learn anything in between. Yeah that's one of the sort of short term things that we're doing. As I've said also at that same forum the way I really measure the success of the university is what happens to our graduates can they get jobs if they get jobs can they progress and move and not just the dead end type jobs and the surveys that we've done have pleased us greatly in terms of the ability of our graduates to enter the workforce and move right ahead. But that's long term and our society today is very short term oriented whether it's the quarterly earnings report of a corporation or whatever it might be. And so this fall we've started a process whereby every freshman student will take what is called the ACTU comp test it's a little different from the AZT test that they take in in high school and then when

they graduate I think I mentioned whether that's four five or six years later they will be given the same exam and this will give us at least one measure one objective measure of. Have we added value to that student's life during the time that they've been a student at the University of Wyoming and they probably won't remember the first time they took it if we're talking about these six year students possibly not worth bringing up. Q Is the fact that the university's admissions standards have made a difference this year in the AICTE scores that we received back at the State Department of Education and Leroi I think we heard from the community college system to that that scores were up and that's because more kids have been taking a higher level of courses. And when you have kids taking math for four years instead of for two years they're going to score higher on a math test if you have kids taking four years of science four years of English in history.

My play is parents it's free for crying out loud. Have your kids in Rome in the most academically oriented courses they can. Well it's a free opportunity to take four years of math history science English and what. What is your assessment of how well prepared these students are that are coming out and you have to be honest here. You can't just be polite. Students you're getting from a while I'll be polite. I can be politely honest. OK. The freshman class entering the University of Wyoming this year by any measure that you apply to it is the best freshman class we've had in the history of the university. And the reason is because when we announced five years ago that starting this fall if you wanted to come to the University of Wyoming you had to take a college prep curriculum and that the number of students taking the a c t test so these are students with at least some higher education in mind that the percentage of those students who are now taking the core

curriculum has increased over the last five years in Wyoming by 18 percent. Contrast that with a national increase of 10 percent. So I think the message is out there someone said at one of the meetings and I never really thought of it. Perhaps this succinctly but the universe what it what the University of Wyoming does by its actions it has tremendous influence on what happens in K-12 and the community colleges. And I guess I'd always just sort of thought well yes we train the teachers who go back to the schools. But I think this illustrates maybe what this person was trying to say that by our institution of admission requirements we have help the public schools because the message is now if you don't prepare yourself you will have to be deferred in terms of coming to the University of Wyoming until you show you can do the work. OK I'm going to work our way back along the chain and I want to come back to community colleges here as part of that. Go ahead. Yes I was just going to say to add

to what Terry was just saying I think we saw a perfect example of that this fall when indeed this was the first year when people were going to be eliminated and I think the evidence was that they listened because I think fewer than 20 students were actually denied admission. And to me that suggests they paid attention. They began to take the classes and I would add one other thing the issue of accountability keeps surfacing. Another new law that took effect this year is an accountability law if you will that is all of us are required now to report back by law to all of the high schools in the state how their graduates have done on our campus so we're required to report back to any high school in this state who has sent us a student or multiple students how those students did on our campus and we worked very diligently to protect the identity if you will because of the laws requiring privacy. But in the meantime we can identify areas of study and grade point average is in that sort of thing and that gives the high school the opportunity to look and see how are graduates doing in the community college system because they get that report from all seven colleges

like Rice University sends us a similar report of how our transfer students are doing at the university. So we get a sense of the quality we are giving them before they go on and on all of this then falls back into if you will an overall picture of if you will value added is a term that Terria added quality or institutional effectiveness. There's another implication to it that kind of intrigues me and that that's the whole local control question that we talk about so much in a sense by setting certain standards for applicants to the University of Wyoming. There's some outside pressure being exerted on the quality of education in the lower grades and that's an interesting thing. We've run into that with the Goals 2000 and some other federal programs where they do impose a certain demand on what's taught at those lower grades and I guess I'm wondering if you see the local control and these federal and state university forces in conflict or how well that's working whether in fact we might need some outside push on some of these local

control school issues. I don't think so because I think what you still see is a local school board is deciding the curriculum they're deciding which math courses they can afford to offer. I think you're seeing really exciting things happening now with dual credit offered between the community college system and and high schools so that if you have a student who really excels you don't want to hold anybody back. What we want to do is push kids as fast as we can and if if they can master the high school can offer send them to the community college system and we have some great co-operative agreements. What it does it doesn't it doesn't take away the local control but what it does it says to those parents if you want your kids to go off and do something you're responsible for making sure that they take these classes. I've had a lot of kids go through school and almost all of them as seniors grew up the simplest easiest system that they could possibly have for that last year because they said they could play all year

with the system now that the university has. They can't do that. We on to college. And it makes a terrific amount of difference that the kid has really fairly tough classes these last year and make keeps his brain sharp for that first year in college and it's a terrific change in the whole attitude. Let's talk about the kids that don't go on to college because that has come up at some of these meetings and I think we heard some rather strong comments about the preparedness of young people coming out of the high schools for the simple everyday work. Would you want to comment on that. Well a lot of reference has been made at all the public education meetings on what about the kids that go off to college or don't go off right away because they are many people in the community college system now are what they call the nontraditional students on average age runs around 31 years of age so many of them have been out of school they've been working sometimes they've been laid off sometimes they've been through a rugged marriage and are now coming back as a single parent. I don't know

that I have an accurate number on the split but pardon me I would say it's probably about a 60 40 split in terms of the traditional 19 20 year old as opposed to an older student. And I think that has a lot to say about what's happening to the kids coming out of high school. Many of them are ill prepared for the new jobs that are out in society that require a higher skill level or a different skill level that are currently being taught. Many of the young people spoke at our forums talked about the virtue of a program like the DEKA program if VLA the Future Business Leaders of America students here in Riverton talked about the cooperative school study program where you go to school and work for business at the same time. We've had discussions about through the school to work program about instituting apprenticeships or training programs starting in the junior year of high school that would allow students to learn technical or occupational skills at the same time are finishing up their high school

high school schooling and I think we have heard over and over again at these public meetings that that's really the workforce that's not being developed out there and that maybe some of the reason why we're seeing such a high rate of return to the community colleges where young people have gone out there eager to be employed and they soon find out that seven to $10 an hour jobs don't support much of anything particularly a family. And so if to achieve the skill level that's going to be needed in a new set of good occupations in society that they need something beyond high school they need some vocational skills and high school some living skills but they need an extra major. That's not quite at the baccalaureate level to be able to compete with the new type of jobs that are cropping up even in Wyoming. Is there is there a place in the world though these days for those kids who go through high school and they do want to get to work and they're ready and they are they think they're ready and then they get out there and we hear what we hear tonight that they're just really not ready.

They don't have whatever skills needed. I think what you see happening now as early as junior high school is that a lot of school districts are going to career development plans helping children early in junior high learning to set goals. Research shows clearly that kids who succeed have learned how to set goals and usually have some kind of an adult mentor who supports them in achieving those goals. So you set career goals early on then you realize that you need math and science and English or applied math if you want to go into an apprentice program and you know that early on so you begin to build a program that will give you skills when you graduate you leave. And I think there are lots of opportunities now for career development as we look at the school to work in workforce development programs that are already in place. I think you'll see them shifting a bit to meet the career goals that our students are going to have because those goals are quite different than the goals that you might have set when you were in seventh grade. And I think you're seeing a shift in adjustment to that. I have a

question maybe even for Jim. Do you think that there are enough kids that are looking for an education that will help them start their own business. It was one of the things that I've noticed as we talked at the public meetings as we talked to an awful lot about workforce development for students who will go work for somebody that except for the young people who have come and talk to us about the various programs like Deka. There have not and there has not been much that has taught young people to be in business for themselves. Jim I know you have some pretty strong feelings on that. Jeff one time I did draft to be able to make it so that there would be a sum of money set up so any high schools could set up a program where they started a business and with funds enough to start some kind of a business that they actually operated in the school and had to do it and had to make money out of it and so on but those were the good old days weren't they. All I just didn't fight hard enough for it. But I thought it was really a good idea at the time and it might have helped. I read the other day where a program like this is happening back east and SSMS they'd been

to of course that we started a really strong vocational program when I was chairman of the high school board in Goshen County. And of course we've lost an awful lot of this with this loss of vocational money when we the vocational money and it's always been a really sad feeling for me the fact that we have kids who don't get a chance to learn to work now until we're almost too old to work. You know you can take any kid when he's 14 years old and he wants to work and they're easy to teach to work. But by the time they're 18 or 19 it's really difficult to take them out there and teach him how to work because I've tried a lot. You know I do some of the other things I was going to add to that your comment about preparation for the workplace is one of the changes we have observed is you know the historical perception of the vocational program was that was a program for those who were less able academically and and therefore if we had a kid that might be a nice kid and had a pretty good work ethic but wasn't particularly academically inclined they could go into a career vocational program that has changed.

Now we find students arriving at our community college doors expecting to go into electronics or automotive technology or many of the career programs find those programs to be just as academically challenging as the academic programs are in fact you whole many of us I used to love to fancy myself a shade tree mechanic. I don't even open the hood of a car. You can't do that. You know the dollar and the same thing is happening. Students said I want to go even into the vocational areas have to prepare themselves. How many careers use mathematics as much as a welder or temple. And so there has been even that shootings that has made it more challenging you know put a greater requirement on the public schools to prepare students that want to go on for anything beyond the high school. You we've we've talked a lot about student's needs here and I think we need to shift a little bit and talk about teachers needs. I know a couple of community college teachers have spoken at some of the forums and expressed some concern about workloads and things like that. And actually something new just your mention of Goshen County reminded me of the fact that I think Goshen County

has been experimenting. Or the school district has been experimenting with merit pay. So let's talk a little bit and let's begin with the community colleges about how we're taking care and how we're treating our teachers. I think our greatest challenge is what I'll call professional development. You know certainly as technology has evolved we want to be on the leading edge. But the fact is we have faculty members who've been there for 15 or 20 years and they actually have to have training before they can train the students. And we're from you and if I see us falling behind it's in that area being able to provide that professional development to keep them on the leading edge because that's a very big challenge in many cases you can have a department with one person you can't afford for them to leave the program is in jeopardy if they're going off returning soldiers. But in the meantime you're absolutely right. We hear an awful lot of concern about the salary level and workload and that sort of thing. I think we've resolved the workload situation by line at least on our campus and I think my sister institutions have done likewise establishing an internal workload committees review

the various requirements of given academic fields because it varies if you're teaching a class. It's just a straight lecture class or a class that has laboratories associated with it or one that has a great deal of clinical or if you will a shop kind of activity go where that person might be on their nearly 40 hours a week. Well I think they've established some standards on the workload situation. I still see our biggest challenges to professional development to keep them current in every field. For example in nursing we don't think of that as a vocational field but clearly it is a vocation even though it's very academic. But we want those nursing graduates to be absolutely on top of the latest developments in their medical care capabilities. Superintendent What about the the kindergarten through 12th level. How are we treating our teachers in terms of where we sit on that famous pay scale nationally and other other things as well. Well I would go back with what Leroy said and it's one of our major six schools and our department has that staff development is what we hear from everyone that

we have to provide opportunities for teachers to stay on the cutting edge. And and if you look at a public school budget nearly 80 percent of that budget goes into the resources of the people. And that's teachers administrators entire staff at the school with benefits. And that's where that's the piece that we have to look at as we try to see maximizing resources finding different ways to do things forming partnerships. That's the chance that we have to effect and that is part of that 80 percent. And for sure we want to stay competitive with surrounding states and we haven't with the flat resources that we've had in the last biennium and this them. It doesn't look like we're. It doesn't look like there is an increase in in those kind of funds as we take you know our share of the resources along with the other agencies and government. So we have to work to provide the staff development and help our teachers

be the best they can be with what we have. But what do you think about merit pay. I think that we need to look for ways to reward those people who are innovative who go above and beyond who are out there doing more than other people and I don't think we have a system in place yet that does that. But I don't rule that out as a possibility. OK. The other thing we haven't talked about that we ought to get to is is the education that comes even before one gets to school. There's a lot of concern about that that you hear raised that there are some children who are not coming prepared for school. How are we going to handle that especially given that a lot of federal programs that have helped in the past like headstart are facing cuts at this point. Any any ideas. Well preschool or pre whatever education is going to be important but the question is who who should provide it.

Probably one of the most characteristic trademarks of success in the head start program is not just the federal funding it's been parental involvement. They are next to the youngest daughter went through the head start program. I have nieces and nephews who have gone through it. And the key to their capabilities and their preparation seems to be the involvement of parents who are willing to donate time and participate along with the other people who were there. So I guess I would say that that's the key. Parental involvement or community involvement of family is falling apart. It's not picking up the pieces. The obligation is in the public schools. I think again is that fine line of what should we expect from ourselves through our community efforts and what we just pass off to the schools and say well we want to make sure that every child is ready to learn when they go to first grade. So let's make sure kindergarten is ready and to do that let's make sure we have preschools in place and pretty soon we're back to age zero being administered under the public supervision. I think we've lost something if we've delegated that to

to our public schools. So whether it be Head Start or some other program like that I think it depends heavily on community involvement and parental involvement. If we have the same level parental involvement in the public schools that we do with Head Start we'd have tremendous educational opportunities. But even with parental involvement somehow those programs have to be paid for if they're going to continue while the allocation of funds that would come in for instance or the block grant program doesn't preclude things like Head Start. We can still have Head Start programs if they are the high priority of the the local districts when we talked about setting salaries or setting priorities for early childhood education any of those are actually at the discretion of the local board of trustees or community college university or the public schools. Those salaries can be raised. That means those programs that can be offered and the choices which should come first. My approach to state government has been if the program was worth

doing under federal funding it's worth doing under state funding and that the criteria shouldn't be the source of funding it should be the criteria we set for the program. Likewise setting salaries are setting other achievable goals like that put the priority where it belongs. Independent of the funding and you'll find the funding comes about. I think we need to also look at headstart deals with disadvantaged children but we also have lots of folks in Wyoming who have perhaps some others not working and is able to do all kinds of things with their children at home or you have two parent families that are working who are able to pay for their children to be in daycare or preschool. And what communities need to do collectively is step up and say what kind of preschool programs daycare programs are available in our community. I think licensing health safety the kinds of programs I would really encourage parents to spot check

come in when you're not expected and see what kinds of things are happening to your children in day care. I would encourage businesses to allow time off for parents to go in and maybe spend an hour or have an extended lunch hour occasionally to go and spend time in early childhood programs because we have lots of folks in Wyoming who are perfectly willing and able to pay for the service. What we need to guarantee is that there's a quality service available for them to send their children to. What about the people who can't pay them. I mean is these programs devolve to more and more local governments and as we eliminate as we will under the under the current budget resolutions and appropriations more and more federal aid for these programs. Where do you see the slack being picked up. Oh I guess I'm not so sure the federal government's the one that needs to do it. I work in a preschool program that our church sponsored and we had a sliding scale for people who could not afford to send their children to the program. I think that's what we have to look for. There's also people willing to provide scholarships and there are programs for with aid

to dependent children that you can send your child through government programs. There's also sort of a borderline in there that you don't qualify for a federal or state program and you and you might not be able to send your child. And I think that's when communities step up and say this is important. You can find ways that communities can help provide facilities and do fundraising and do foundations and boards. There are a lot of ways that you can be sure that children in your community are well taken care of at the community college level. You're looking also at various federal funds being cut and a steady state funding I think for the community college system. Certainly one of the things that I've seen in the two community sessions that I've attended has been a great deal of concern about the Block Grants and what might happen there. And as Governor Dean said tonight there's a very good chance that there will be a diminishing of federal dollars that flow through that. And and what we're going to be required to do at the state level will be establish priorities if you will to decide what direction that money might flow. But the fact

is there are concerns about that sort of situation evolving. I know we have several people on our campus who are employed through soft money and it's a real challenge for us and we have to look at and decide within our own structure and again that's what the governor has just said. I identify in terms of priorities. Is there something else that must before forfeited to sustain that or not. It is a concern. They've been funded by soft money since their inception and they've never had to we've never had to make that decision. Yes I really think one of the some of the public funding was really damaging to public school. I was on a school board in Goshen County when we started to get most federal funds piled one on up until that time we were extremely responsible and the school board was we knew where every penny was spent and every teacher knew where every student was when we started getting that Title One money all at once then kids were out of their classrooms so no teacher was actually responsible for them. We figured it was federal money and we didn't really watch how it was being spent. And I think

that education slipped a lot in those years so I don't think that a lot of times the federal money has been a big help to us. But I went to a meeting last week in Goshen County. It was for parents who have children have problems and there were 30 people in there that were writers for those kids some of them are public school people some are in Headstart Some were even kids at the age of 21 or students have people at the age of 21. But there was over 30 providers in that room that provide services just in that area for students with handicapped or mental disabilities so we were looking after that bunch of student people pretty well. And but as far as the money that went to the public schools I sometimes think that's when a lot of our education standards started to slip. Let's talk about at the university level. One thing we do hear about are potential cuts in student loans or at least a restructuring of the student loan program where there would be they might drop the no interest for six months deal and things

like that. Do you see an impact on the students coming to UW or even students being discouraged from pursuing a college education because of that kind of limitation. Yeah Jeff I do. We have worked very diligently with our Wyoming delegation. And then we have also worked through our national higher education organizations to try to blunt as much impact on students and their parents in terms of federal financial aid including loan programs as possible. And I'm pleased to say that we've had the support of our delegation particularly in the Senate and that many of the initial proposals have been scaled back or dropped. It's going to be very crucial what comes out of the conference committees in terms of that impact. But yes it will. It is going to drive up the debt load of students leaving the University of Wyoming no matter what is adopted.

It will drive up the debt load. And I'm really concerned about that because to me this is a fundamental shift in the philosophy of what higher education is and does before the shift to loans from federal aid grants to those who needed money. I believe the philosophy was that higher education was a public good. The shift to loans says no it's not a public good it's a personal good. The public doesn't necessarily benefit from you being educated. Further you benefit personally therefore you pay for it. And that bothers me and maybe I'm reading the tea leaves wrong but I don't think so. Well yes please reinforcement to what degree it's our perception that that this shift is also making another change in terrible recall. Not too many years ago when there was quite a bit of federal money for the work study program and it was arson. So that was a program that helped people value work and saw the benefit of work and saw that they could

help themselves get their education. And it seems to me now what we're doing is preparing a generation of borrowers rather than a generation of workers. And that has bothered us. It's a similar shift only a little different slant on the thing because when there was work study help available we could utilize the students and they can develop their talents they worked as laboratory assistants they helped classroom instructors they worked on our campuses and our libraries. And they really developed in a sense some work skills and they could get a recommendation have a work experience when they left college. Now that's not the case when they leave college with is a tremendous pocketful of debt and the shift to the lower society has been a great concern to us as well. Two of you have now mentioned the the necessity of making some tough choices you did earlier. Governor I want to turn to you with that. That's the hard part of your job I guess is pointing to things like this and starting to make some of those choices. If things are going to have to be cut and other things favored these town meetings that you've

held illuminated for you what kind of choices are you ready to make. Well I've helped a lot. We've had General toung meetings in 10 communities we've had an education town meetings and eight additional communities so it gives a balance of perspective not only within education what we might be able to do but also the relative comparisons with the other state programs. And when education takes about half the budget health takes about 30 percent and then some of the other social programs even above corrections take another eight or nine percent. It says that we have to look at what we expect out of government what we can expect from other alternatives. And part of what I will have to select is not only the tough choices but the challenge is to still create the opportunity for those services by an alternative means. And that's why I emphasize getting back to communities and getting back to those opportunities. Have you started to see any of those elements that you're going to swing the axe that you're willing to

name a few. I wouldn't call it swinging the axe I call it challenging our opportunities. And I want to I want to come up with a budget that is not a doomsday budget. It's one that creates some optimism and some new hope and we will look for programs that have creativity and innovation opportunities with one time funding for delivery systems as well as education. I think there are some opportunities beyond just the characterization that it's going to be a cut approach. It's going to be innovation on my part as well as other people's. Jim from a lead from a legislator's point of view do you see at this point elements in this system than what we're finding now at the state level that could be cut or should be cut. I think we really need to take a look at Medicaid some of those things I think we really do. Some of the things we do in Medicaid are extremely destructive to our the way that people live. But I'm thinking in the education case yeah. I mean we kept those two guys I don't have anybody to call me at

liberty to protect. Let's do it let's do something a little different then. And this will be a way of maybe wrapping up this conversation and that is I'd like to give you all a chance to to use a phrase of yours to reinvent government here and take the system we've got cognisant of some of the limitations that we face financially and do a little reinventing things that you would like to change a system that you'd like if you could just start from scratch. I know that's not possible and this may get us way off into La-La Land but let's try and let's start with you. Well as an early childhood educator I firmly believe birth to five years are critical times in a child's life to set standards and expectations. So I would find ways to help parents do the very best job they can from communities to support young children and from there it's building partnerships. I'm just more convinced than ever that's how we're going to get the job done. It's exciting. The possibilities are limited.

I could sit right here and find a way to build a new partnership. But don't forget partnerships need to be mutually beneficial to both parties. So that's what we have to do with very little time left. Governor I do want to give you a chance to maybe have the last word on how you might reinvent our education system. Well some of it is going to be simply the changes in technology. There will be a package of education services offered particularly higher education. They'll will in many cases supplement. But I think in other cases substitute for what we currently have so we have to meet that challenge and that opportunity. I think we could take away a lot of the structure that is imposed by the calendar and other things in public schools and say if a school had no restrictions but had local control through local control what system would they design. I'd like to give a couple of schools schools that opportunity in the next by any MNC what would result from that. I think there are some opportunities if we give rein to creativity at the local level that might be one way to do it. Prison growth I can give you the briefest glance if you want to add any

little bit to this. I have trouble reinventing the university let alone state government so I'll just stick to my knitting. Well I want to thank you all for being here tonight. It's been great. I appreciate all your contributions and your thoughts and I also want to thank the viewers for coming. I think we're beginning to see as Budgens as budgets tighten as the workplace demands more what a precarious and precious benefit education is because education begins with local control. There is a tremendous opportunity to get involved. I hope these discussions will continue in your town and your home. Thanks for watching and for listening to