We the People; University of Wisconsin regents

We. The people Wisconsin the future of the UW system is sponsored by. Wisconsin Education Association Council. Miller Brewing Company. Blue Cross Blue Shield United of Wisconsin Wisconsin Power and Light Foundation. And the Pew Center for civic journalism. Washington D.C.. You can't lower the tuition for everybody. Expand services in a time of shrinking state budget you can't do it. Where's the funding going to come from. You're going to continue to raise tuition then students won't come. It's an investment for all. Why can't the state and the system look at it that way instead of looking at it. How much can we charge them. I think in our whole society we have to look at the priorities. And right now people like to talk about education but they really don't want to talk about how you're going to fund it.

Good evening I'm Dave Iverson. Welcome to tonight. We the People special in just a few weeks the University of Wisconsin Board of Regents will make some critical choices about the future of the UW system tonight. Our special is one last chance for people across the state to sound off on the kind of state university system. Wisconsin residents would like to have in addition to our audience here on the UW Madison campus. We will also hear tonight from people gathered in Wausau and in Menominee the VISC TV's bestor bokken is in Wausau tonight at the Wausau Center Mall over here from area citizens and system officials and in Menominee this evening Wisconsin Public Radio's joy Cardin will talk with a number of guests on the campus of the University of Wisconsin stout. Our town meeting participants tonight will respond to the preliminary recommendations the UW regents have drafted and they'll have a chance to quiz top UW officials system regents and key lawmakers here in our Madison location. We'll begin though with a background report on those recommendations and the choices facing the UW system.

Here's WASC TV's Roger Putnam. Made it in 1971 the UW system consists of 26 campuses 13 or four year universities. The other 13 are two years centers. Last summer the legislature cut $43 billion in state funding to the system to help pay for property tax relief. We've tried to maintain access for students not cut any students out of the system. You're hurting an institution that public officials are quick to take credit for. The 17 member board of regents says overseen program cuts staff reductions and tuition hikes. They recently released a study for the 21st century and have been gathering citizen input for the past month. Their proposals include a limit on tuition increases to under 10 percent annually. Credit caps which would force students to pay more for non-essential credits a graduation contract to encourage students to get through school in four years and increase in salaries to

attract and retain faculty and finally seek more private support as public monies dwindle. This study isn't simply a request of the legislature and the governor for them to do things with the university. There's a lot in this report. Which involves a commitment on the part of the university to do some things within the university in order to preserve Axel's Gwaltney. The regions are also encouraging a greater reliance on the 13 to year institutions that are touted as lower cost high quality and have space to grow. There is not a lot of extra. And we've had to cut back a little bit the last couple of years not only because of the budget but because it's a one on one. Well here's a quick overview of the UW system over the past decade. Enrollment has decreased 9 percent. The total system budget has increased 68 percent to nearly $2.7 billion. While the percentage of state aid has dropped 6 percent to fill the gap tuitions have risen

60 percent with more hikes being considered. While tuition continues to rise the UW maintains one of the lowest tuition rates in the Big Ten. So some of the challenges and the choices now facing the UW system. Now in recent weeks people across the state have been talking about these subjects now and we're going to hear how they react to these topics. We'll go first to Wausau and the Wausau Center Mall where Beth Zurr bokken is standing by. Thank you very much Dave yes I am here in Wausau where there are about 35 people gathered. Many of them who attended the town hall meeting we had about a week ago. They're here to express their concerns and comments about the University of Wisconsin system Wausau is the home of the UW Marathon center. It is one of 13 2 year centers at our recent town hall meeting some worried about the ability to transfer credits when it's time to move on. Many worry like those at four year campuses. What happens if more money is cut. Will classes be cut. Will teachers or professors be eliminated. And what about tuition.

I would like to introduce two people who will be key tonight in our discussion here. We have Regents Santa or Junior who is with us tonight. And thank you Richard for being here. Thank you Beth. Also with us is the dean of the marathon center Dean Dennis mathy. Thank you. It's a pleasure to be here. We will be talking to you two gentlemen tonight. And we have quite a few questions to ask. But first let's go to a four year institution. UW stout and Wisconsin Public Radio's joy Hardeen. Thanks Beth. We invited the people who attended our town hall meeting in Auclair last week to join us again tonight at the UW stout communications center. Last week about 45 town hall participants came up with some of the same issues he didn't Wassa. But they prioritized them a little bit differently. Affordability was the chief concern and Auclair followed by quality and access issues management and structure. Questions came up too but not to the extent of the others. I'd also like to introduce tonight someone who is joining us who'll answer some questions. He is the chair of the

assembly's college and universities committee. State Representative Rob Chrebet He's here at our audience in style to listen and to respond to town hall participants. So we should start the town hall I guess with Dave Iverson in Madison. All right some of the issues that have been talked about in both Wausau stouts and also an Auclair. We're going to focus then on those key concerns. Concerns about cost crowding and quality. We're going to start with the topic of cost. It's a concern because among the systems for year campuses tuition has increased 60 percent over the last 10 years. So let's go back up to Wausau now first for a question on this topic of cost and affordability. And believe it or not yes we've had many questions about where's tuition going to go and even for students right now how can I continue to afford to pay for credits when tuition is increasing at such a dramatic rate. With me is a student here UW Marathon County. Erin Olson Hieron.

Hi my name is Erin and I am a student here at UW I'm seeing I'm very concerned about increases in tuition. As a student I feel that tuition is going up and up and up and financial aid and financial resources for students is continues to decrease. I'm also very concerned and would like to ask the regions why they would consider charging students extra money for credits that go beyond the 120 credit rule for. You know for doing for doing this. So that. Well. Let's ask let's ask region or because he is here. But that is a big issue why would the regions consider charging a surcharge to students who perhaps want to just just want to learn. First. Beth I think I'd like to address her her principal question and that is tuition. We have a long history in the state of having very low tuition. It's part of the fabric of Wisconsin. No one on the board of regents wants to see that change. We're second lowest in the Big 10 at this point. All of us want to keep it low as low as we possibly can. We said we want increases to be reasonable and predictable. We feel very strongly about

that. We're also told though that the historic quality of this institution should be maintained. That costs money. The last thing we want to do is raise tuition. We want to preserve access. We want to keep it affordable. That's the Wisconsin tradition. The the so-called extra surcharge for extra credits is really a question of access as much as it is of tuition. We're going to be leaving to serve 10000 more students by the year 2000. All we have were the resources we can provide a certain number of credit hours and that's how we find out and stay tuned and who are paying the full cost of their education. Three times what you are. They get through with 127 credits attempted. The Wisconsin student the Townsel 147 credits so there's quite a difference there. The taxpayers pay for two thirds of the cost of your education. In order for us to serve these additional students we'd like to trim the time it takes to get a degree. And for those students who am I'm sympathetic to them we'd like to take more courses to broaden

their background to make themselves more marketable. That's highly desirable for them. The taxpayers paid two thirds of it and some of those taxpayers may have children equally qualified who are unable to get into the system. So one point sympathetic to them region just a yes or no question Do you think the surcharge will go into effect. I don't know. That's a good middleground thank you very much Dave Iverson Let's go back to you. All right let's let's try our hand with getting a yes or no response from Mike Green Bay. Will the surcharge go into effect. I think so. All right. That's at least I think so I guess that's closer to the yes. We have another question online now from our location at the UW. Let's go there. Yes I have with me here David médecins ski David Madison ski is a grad student here at UW stout and you're concerned about the cost of higher education. Yes I completed my undergraduate degree in the mid-80s and a return to grad school and I'm just surprised and alarmed by the reductions in financial aid somewhat for myself but especially for undergraduates.

I've met many undergraduates who are just incurring significant amounts of debt loan debt and I'm just wondering what kind of creative options are there out there for these young people who are going out starting careers and families and taking you know 10000 plus in debt with them. I think we have someone here who might have an answer for you. State Representative. Rob cryovac Well he raises a very interesting point. Until this last budget here in Wisconsin financial aid at the state level had kept pace with with tuition increases. But this last budget we did have to freeze the financial aid at a time when tuition was increasing about 6 percent. Where you're seeing the reduction really in federal financial aid is coming from Washington where aid is being slashed or the combination of financial aid dwindling and tuition continuing to increase prompted me to introduce a bill AB 10 11 that recently passed the state assembly by 96 to 3 margin. It's a prepaid tuition program that allows parents

and grandparents to open up accounts for their children. And basically you're paying tomorrow's tuition at today's prices. And we think we have to provide some mechanism out there for middle income families to begin saving because right now they've seen the projections into the next century and it does look hopeless. So does that answer your question. Well as somebody from a North Woods community with lows a lot of folks in low socioeconomic categories. I wonder how that type of a program responds to their needs. Well in the data that we have from the other states the people who are taking part are in between 30 and $70000. Clearly middle income in addition to those people who are taking part in the prepaid tuition programs and the eight other states that have them I would otherwise be putting that money in a savings account so we think the way we've designed this program where you can buy credits in very small increments. We have tailored it bent over backwards to make it appealing to middle and lower income people. Well maybe somebody in Madison wants to also take on that question or another we should go back to

the microscope. All right let's see if we can get a reaction from System president Catherine Lyle about what students can do to find more financial assistance. You heard the concerns we've heard them all across the state you've heard them in your hearing as well. Yes. One of the things that's going on here is that compared to about 10 years ago the proportion of loans and grants in a student's financial aid package has has changed. It used to be that about two thirds of financial aid package was Grant and one third was loan and now the other way around. And so I think the kinds of concerns that we're hearing reflect in part a concern about the growing loan burdens that students have when they graduate. All right we have another question here in Madison this comes from David Stacy who's with the United Council if you want to comment further sort of on the affordability and financial aid issue. The state has not actually kept up in financial aid because although the percentage increase in the state funding for state programs has been the same it hasn't actually kept up with the need because more students need aid as tuition goes up and they have more need. The other factor of course is that the Federal aid is

75 percent of the financial aid and it's not been keeping pace and in fact Congress has proposed cuts in that. Is there a way to do more in the way of providing financial aid. David Moore GW Madison Chancellor I think there are two issues that we need to keep separate. One is the cost of education and the different components that go into that cost which itself rises gradually. But we've been obviously substituting tuition for other kinds of support state support and so on. And the other one is can education itself be done at a more reasonable price and therefore in a sense the cost itself be brought down. So there are two factors. One is can we do something to help in financial aid in terms of the changing distribution and the putting of a greater cost on the student. The other thing can we do things which will in effect help us to be perceived as being more effective and more efficient. So I think we've got to do both of those things. I don't think it's really a problem though that it can be solved here in Wisconsin. We heard David say refer to the question of federal dollars for financial need this isn't something that can be solved as an island here in Wisconsin. The president.

That's right. There are certain things we can do here locally but there are also very important things that need to happen on the national scene including the preservation of the federal student aid programs that now exist. All right we have another question on this same topic. Are you a stout location let's go back there. Not sure it's exactly on the same topic Dave but we have a resident here who has a concern about the cost of higher education. Hello. I'm Albert Karen from Auclair and I provide off campus housing for students and they're proposing to build the new new dorm in Auclair with public funds. And we feel first of all that this dorm is not needed and the over the years the dorms you know Claire are being the day they're retiring the bonds now they're paying them off and they do have extra funds in the in the dorm

system. And rather than using that money to compete with private enterprise and to build a we think that private enterprise should be building this. This type of a dorm are providing the students and the access money that they're generating I think could be used for many different purposes in education. All right let me interject if I might back here in Madison and see if we can get to that question answered right away. It sounded like a good Republican private enterprise question. So Senator Robert let's go ahead. I'm on the spot. Well I think it's been a tradition of privatization. I always think of in terms of something has always been done by the private sector to try to keep it there. But there's clearly a room on all campuses to have dorm housing and I don't I can't comment on whether Clara needs one or six or none but certainly dorms have been a traditional function of state government and will continue to be. All right. We're going to go ahead. Quick response and would like to comment specifically on this issue because I think it demonstrates the the concern the sensitivity that the university and the border regions has to private

industry and the private sector in this particular situation and we made the decision that we would go out first to the private sector and see what see if there was interest in the private sector to put together a new Dohrmann Auclair and only in the event that that didn't turn out to be the case we would use public funds to build a new dorm. All right we want to get into Folden now to the question of access who gets into the University of Wisconsin because obviously all of these things interrelate and we're going to begin that part of our discussion tonight. Back in Wausau with Beths or and Beth. And Dave everybody in the state of Wisconsin believes that we should have access to a very good quality education. But with increasing enrollments another chief concern of course becomes access. Consider this nearly one third of Wisconsin's high school graduates will enroll in the UW system school by the year 2000 as you heard already tonight. Officials estimate they will have to accommodate an additional ten thousand students So where are they going to go. Combine that now with only a slight increase in state tax support. And the

problem becomes a necessary balance between what you do with tuition and what do you do with admission requirements. Wisconsin public television reporter are KAC art Hackett takes a look at that. Launch. We've got people in the eye of the fire marshal get upset with you all move to the center. This orientation program for prospective students at the University of Wisconsin in Madison served as a reminder that the Madison campus is a popular place. It's so popular it's getting harder and harder to get in. Ten years ago if you were in the Top 40 percent of your high school class you could pretty well be sure that you were going to get into Madison. Now you've got to be in the top 15 to be sure that you get in a four year student tour guides who show the visitors around the campus remind them things will be a lot different here than they are in high school probably are freshman lecturers are going to range somewhere between a hundred to 400 students.

I don't know that the overwhelming anybody and offer helpful advice for Coping is that up close we're really not going to notice that many people that are falling behind you in. Large classes don't seem to discourage many people. Andy Meyer now in his junior year at New Berlin West High School says he wants to be a badger. I prefer the smaller classes but I would still rather go into medicine. The other things that have a lot more classes in other subjects. Meyer wants to major in biology says his mind was all but made up after he came to be a eastern Michigan football game the first home game after the Badgers won the Rose Bowl. I can laugh about them with the band at. I like Mr. Really Madison still has that clout here in the state that it's you know the major number one university and that the

football team certainly in their success the last three years the band program. I think a lot of kids kind of see Madison as you know the place to be. Meyer says most students feel the atmosphere is more important than the academics. I think college. Students focus on campus atmosphere may frustrate the region's hopes of encouraging students to start their college careers at the UW go Center system. Thirteen two year institutions which could handle an estimated 1000 more full time students with little additional cost. They are cheaper the quality of instruction is superb and it's a resource and an asset that ought to be heavily used. The fretting over where to put the students who will be seeking admission in the coming years seems odd in some ways. There were once forty five hundred more undergraduates on the Madison campus than there are today. Some may wonder why the school can't

accommodate them now. Students complained and parents complained very bitterly about the fact that they got into the university but they couldn't get the courses they needed. They couldn't get a seat in the library to study if enrollment limits aren't used. Keep down the number of students. There is always a tuition increase. Andy Meyers mother doesn't seem concerned about tuition as it is today to work and earn money. I think it's doable but nuber when we asked guidance counselor Bill Miller says UW as tuition as moderate as it seems compared to other schools may be near the point of driving students away from a university education all together. I think it's at that breaking point where a lot of a lot of families decide that there would be other ways to meet their educational needs. It might not be full time right out of school. Well let's hope we don't keep people out of the system. You are and interest yourself and explain the position that you've had with this whole study.

OK. I'm Bellamy Hamilton I'm professor of music here have been teaching at the marathon campus for 23 years. And I was on one of the recent working groups so I've been pretty close to the process and I have a question I want to ask the regents and that's in behalf of our students who all of whom transfer and whom we want to support as much as possible. Are you considering including transfer students especially Center students who transfer into four year graduation contract program. All right. Region to region two I hope you heard that are you going to. Are you going to consider that to your students in the transfer program that you're considering. I think the the transfer program Bellone for your contract is something we want to try on a prototype basis. We have to feel our way with it to see how it does work. We all have to say we have to do a better job transferring credits as you and I both know and we will do a better job with credit transfer. That may help some of it but they'll have to be some adaptations to the four year contract for those our students I'm sure.

And just so people understand that some of the complaints here at the to your center is the fact that the credits don't transfer and they may be taking a 200 level class year but they may transfer to another university and it's only like one hundred. So they're asking those questions why I have Jim Richardson right here. Jim your question was a good one. Yes. I have a question regarding the possible partnership that the regents might form with high schools across the state to hopefully speed up the process through which a student could move through the UW system. Would it be possible for instance to have a student in a senior year in a high school in the state of Wisconsin take classes which could account for some of those freshman courses in college. We've been picking on a region or let's go back to Madison I just wonder if Dave can pick up a regent down there for us to answer that question why can't the high school kids be taking college. Credits. We have practically scores of reasons I'd be happy to answer that question. So I think I'll pick on Gerard Randall to answer that picked on a teacher. I think that that's a good possibility that we

will be encouraging more students in fact we are currently encouraging students to take more college level courses in their their senior year and high schools throughout the state. We want to be more of that so that is something that is ongoing. All right another question on that same basic topic. I was wondering why we couldn't use more placement testing both to get advanced placement and courses and also to maybe weed out some of the people who shouldn't be going to the university system. Do you feel that that there are people going to the UW system now who shouldn't be or are you saying that's part of the access problem. I'm saying that there are courses being taught here at the university that are things that actually I learned back in high school. And I think that we shouldn't be catering to that. All right responses to that Mike Lee the 21st century study in its draft report recommends the use of advanced placement testing so that students can get credit for college courses through AP courses and in high school.

Are you having to teach classes David Ward at the university level that you shouldn't have to. And that means that there are people taking up space here. The implication of the question is who really shouldn't be at the university. No I don't think that's my big problem. I think the occasions where that might occur would be students who are very precocious in one area. For example literature music and so on whose mathematical skills may need a little more help. But in general I would say that particularly in the last five years the issue of students not being prepared to handle legitimate freshmen education has not been a problem. All right we're going to go now to back to Stout's for another question on the this area of accessibility and who gets into the toy. Yes we have someone here who is got a question along those lines go ahead. I'm McAteer on from Auclair and I'm a parent of a college student and I'm just wondering why so many students need five years to complete college whereas back in the 60s when I went to school the norm was to be done in four years. And I'm just wondering if this isn't a problem that needs to be addressed. Maybe someone in Madison can address shaking their heads.

Let's go ahead and get a response from Captain Lyle or Dave Woodward. Madison the time to a degree has changed virtually not at all since 1945. So I think that the pressure however and the cost perhaps of taking an extra semester is more serious now. But the data at UW Madison simply does not sustain the idea that it's changed. The reason why people take a little longer also may have educational value. I think the idea of certain challenging languages certain challenging double majors the fact that some people may not actually focus on their major until sophomore year. And I think the key to the system is to make sure people get the right degree not simply rush through a degree in four years and I believe that nationally to UW Madison's average is very close to that national average of just over four years. Now I think the big change is some students taking significantly longer as a kind of tail. Five and six years and in most cases they're finding of course jobs in a variety of economic problems are a factor.

Let's let's get a little more discussion about that because that's one of the more controversial concerns here and it was raised earlier about getting through in four years you know we've heard of three strikes and you're out in the penal system it seems to be four years and you're out now in the university who is concerned about that and about the push to get through in four years. Let's come back to you but let's get a younger person's perspective on that. Go ahead please your concern. Yeah I'm really concerned about the four year contracts because I chose to take longer than four years and I chose to take longer and four years one because I was working my way through school. And plus because I was involved in a student organization for two years I was a community adviser and my residence halls I am involved with student government right now which makes me a lot more employable and give me experience that is just equal to what I've learned in the classroom. And so I'm very concerned about the four year contract because I think if I'm an intern fresh from I think that Gray is going to go out in four years I didn't realize how valuable everything else was until I was in the school for two or three years. And so I think this four year contract is extremely detrimental to the overall education of student response. The four year contract it's proposed as part of our study is entirely voluntary.

We want to preserve opportunities for people to take longer to get through their college education if they want to. This is designed to provide. However the people who really want to get through in four years a guarantee that they can do that. We think it's important to deliver that to the people of the state. All right let's get another question from Basra. Thank you very much. Glen Moberg is the news director of W W television here in Wassa. Thank you both. I find it ironic that we're talking about improving access when just a few weeks ago the UW president said the budget crisis was so bad that they might actually have to shut down one of the 26 campuses we've got with us. Dean Massey Dennis Massey who is with UW americium marathon Center which is one of the two year campuses why is a two year campus important. And how can you improve public access given the current budget climate. Well thank you Glenn. We've had a long tradition of serving the public and extending access to a variety of students both at the high school level and nontraditional students which are utopian centers

serves in a large number. We're also working on a number of collaborative degree programs one with you know Stephen's point another with E.W. Stout which I think are going to substantially increase partly through distance education technology the access of people in this community to University Wisconsin degree. I think that's a major improvement that's going to have a relatively small cost. How can you do it given the current budget climate. Partly because we are a teaching institution and our faculty serve a large number of people that's their primary mission. Partly through distance education and partly through collaborative work with other institutions a teamwork approach. That is what it's going to take as teamwork approach with the lowering of tax dollars and also tuition. We can't let it go too high. Madison back to you. How can we sell the center system. I've heard you make that same point Catherine while we heard it on one of the reports earlier. How do you get people excited about attending UW Marathon center as opposed to coming to Madison.

Well I think if anybody's been on in one of our centers they will get excited almost automatically by what they see going on there. But the opportunity for small classes personal interaction a very skilled teaching faculty and centers that really interact with the communities in which they're located I think are a very important asset and a resource in this state. The more we can make people aware of that the more opportunities there will be there educationally and for for those centers so I hope people will learn more and more about our centers. All right that leads us into the question of quality and the kind of quality education that you can continue to to offer students. And we're going to begin to focus now on that area and joy is going to lead us into that discussion Joy. Thanks Dave. As you've mentioned we've discussed affordability and access to the UW system but how do we solve those problems without hurting the quality of higher education in this state. The regions proposed enhancing academic quality at the UW with a combination of

faculty support and incentives distance education programs and technologies and a process of ongoing review and assessment programs. A $25 billion fund is dedicated to this distant education portion of this proposal. So does this higher spending translate into higher quality. We have some questions about the quality of education here at UW stout starting with Pat Kaufman. I'd like to know what the student teacher ratio is in the university system and how it compares to the 1970s and 1980s. All right I'll have to toss that to Madison and let's get an answer from Catherine Lyle go ahead. The overall ratio is about 17 to one right now and part of our enrollment management process was to try to keep it at what it was in the 1970s the late 70s and early 80s. Part of what you've also talked about improving quality is the question of distance education and investing seriously in that but I heard this young man make a comment about that topic at our one of our earlier town

halls. Stand up please and for some of your concern about that OK well related to distance education. I just like to point out that first of all distance education comes up about five or six times in this report. I'm wondering if Ameritech had a role in drafting this report. No. But. That wasn't the point. I heard you're making that stand up again and again. The point I heard you make was that what's so exciting about a TV monitor I mean that if you have education coming by way of long distance how does that improve quality. That was your point right. Yeah I mean I can I just. I can understand the use of distance education. Actually I don't even want to cut distance education but I can understand the use of this form that you're using today as a tool but not as replacing professors in the classroom because then you're compromising the quality of education. All right.

Who wants to pick up with a response to that. A very good point and I think it's a matter of a balance between the two. I can't imagine a situation of an entire degree delivered remotely. I think there is a sort of face to face value in education that is as old as universities themselves. I think it's a matter of figuring out a balance and also enhancing face to face activities through interactive courses so not the whole course would be at a distance but maybe parts of it were I think having good extension of the dialogue by reaching out to others both students and faculty elsewhere. But I don't believe that at the very core of things that can replace face to face a sense of learning community. All right. With all due apologies we are going to employ a little technology though now and get another question from Wassa I believe. Go ahead. It's really fun to be beamed into space like this. You know I enjoy it very much. The next question is one that might be a little sore sticking point. I hear it all the time. Teachers academic people say hey this isn't happening but. David go ahead with your question and comment please.

I'm David Lechter from Wausau. I'm 20 years retired in business. Twenty years retired in education. My question is this how can we have quality and education when our best teachers are teaching 10 to 12 hours a week. I understand the need for preparation but if that preparation is an hour or two hours we're still up to 36 hours about. I just don't believe that we can afford it or need to afford to have. Teachers who aren't teaching full time. And if they're going to belong to other committees civic or professional they're professionals they do that on their time. Teach our kids. That's the most important thing. I'm going I step over here to Dean Massey. You hear it all the time I'm sure. Well the great thing about the UW system is the variety of institutions within it. Our campus is part of the UW centers. Our primary mission is teaching. Our faculty teach many hours. They also engage in a lot of professional development to keep that teaching at a high level a high quality level. They also connect a lot with the community Cathrine mentioned the center's proximity to the community it's very important.

So as far as our faculty they're working hard. They're working harder now than they ever have particularly with the reduction of full time faculty because of the budget constraints we've had. So I think that at least of the centers I see teachers working harder and for relatively little gain comparatively than in the past. Let's use that technology and again again and go to storage where we have a response from one of the lawmakers there I believe. Yes. Representative Rob Chrebet has a response to that as well. Well one of the reasons professors are spending 10 or 12 hours in the classroom is that the legislature has reporting requirements to the tune of about 50 that we impose on the UW system on the campuses that takes professors out of the classroom. Turns them really into bureaucrats and one thing we try to do this past session is reduce the number of reporting requirements that we impose because very few legislators actually read them. OK well let's toss it back to Madison. Representative Hansen do you want to make any comments about that about the reporting requirements that Representative cryovac alluded.

I wholeheartedly agree with what Rob has said about the reporting requirements. I've tried and other representatives to give more flexibility to the university system to let them manage without micromanaging being done by the state. But this concern about faculty and how hard they work is one that a lot of people feel very deeply we have a faculty member here who would like to add his response to that. Go ahead. Just say who you are sir please. My name is Anatole back. I'm a professor of mathematics. If you want the very best professors you going to be looking at people whose major whose major compensation for the work they do is the time and the resources to do the kind of work that they are interested in. If you don't want those kind of people if you want people who are not spending time with their subject but who are teaching every week 20 hours of what they learned 30 years ago which is what we see for the most part

in our high schools you are not going to have the kind of university that we had in this state 30 years ago. Thank you. Chuck Berry. Regent and businessman make the case for what Professor Beck was just saying. Because you applauded. Why is it important to have people spending time on research as opposed to spending time teaching day in and day out in the classroom. Well you know the university take Madison is not just the public university everybody claims that it might be its source of revenue is actually in the minority coming from the state sources as chancellor Ward has pointed out a lot of that revenue is coming from research research grants the activity of the faculty the ferment that they create is really the intellectual benefit of the environment the university so I think that our faculty are in the main working quite hard. All you have to do is drive through the campus in the evening you will see the lights on. So thats not the issue the issue is to try and maximize the time that weve got. And lets not overload the system by having too much access not enough tuition capability and certainly not enough money from the

state. That's a recipe for mediocrity. And as Anatole says the recipe for the good faculty to flee. Bridget Brown you're a student but also a representative on the regents do you benefit from the kinds of things and the fall back and John Barry we're talking about. Or read most of your colleagues say hey I have to sit in a lecture class with three hundred kids. I don't get the benefit of that. I think. Absolutely that students benefit from it. Any time a professor. Is excited and involved and up to date in the subject that they teach. I think students are always better off. I'd also like to add that I think the community service the service aspect of teaching is a very important one and one that has been in recent years or overlooked largely. And I think that we'll see that in the. Lack of I don't know if I the empathy or communication between E.W. system

and the state government. I think that it's something that perhaps some people don't see the value but I think that the students do students believe that that community service and that research are a very important part of being a good teacher. All right. In this last portion of our program we want to begin to focus on some of the options that are in front of us and in front of the UW system. And part of what can be useful in this regard is to begin to look at what other people are doing because Wisconsin isn't alone in facing these kinds of challenges. So to see if there was something we could learn from another state's experience. We recently sent a group of reporters as part of our We the People project to visit the University of Virginia as Roger Putnam reports business leaders in that state have helped step up to the plate. The Virginia university system with its thirty nine institutions has the second highest tuition rate in the United States. Students here pay on average more than

forty six hundred dollars a year nearly twice what Wisconsin students pay. The reason tuitions were allowed to soar in the early 1990s because state support dropped by more than 400 million dollars due to the recession here two years ago the state's business community said that was enough. No more cuts. We have to stop this erosion of state support. We're going to price higher ed out of the market for some youngsters. Karen Washburn's with the business higher education Council. Something has to be done. We've got to turn this around. At the same time we've got to ensure that higher ed takes more responsibility for its role in economic development. The Senate will come to order backed by business. Virginia state lawmakers voted to increase funding by more than 200 million dollars last month plus $163 million for new construction.

What the business community did. Was to use their resources to make higher education was a visible issue by constantly debating the issue by constantly challenging candidates by constantly running ads. Maybe with the college president that visibility moved to higher education to a top priority. Absent a similar ruckus Wisconsin lawmakers cut funding to the university system by $43 billion to provide property tax relief. Wisconsin businesses did not back the UW and for a reason Jim Haiti is the president of Wisconsin Manufacturers and commerce. I think that it would be unfair to say there is a wide spread belief that they are hurting. You know I just don't think that most business people in Wisconsin perceive that the comparison between the Wisconsin and Virginia systems is important because of their differences highly centralized here fiercely independent there. BOB O'NEILL was

UW system president until 1985 as Chancellor of the University of Virginia until 1990. As I reflect on the two. Both from inside and outside I would say that a centralized Wisconsin type. Structure. Is advantageous in almost all respects. Virginia higher education officials say there is a downside to more privatization and greater independence. You can win big but you also can fail big because if you make a mistake there's nobody there to cover up boy you would have pick up the pieces to stage two philosophies but at the core as they struggled to keep higher education affordable accessible and of top quality. And top quality is an issue as we search for solutions. And I'm talking to Marilyn sanitizes who is a teacher's aide at Edgeware public schools and she was white. The private universities already signing masters courses that are more relevant to what can be applied in our classrooms. What can the UW system do to accomplish this.

Or am I going to send this over to the region because it's a specific question but it's also an important one because again like the feeling that the teachers professors don't teach enough. There's also that impression out there that the courses being taught are not relevant to what we need in common common like is that a PR problem or what. Plus I think in part it's a PR problem. The university has been remarkably good about adapting to different changes in demand. If you look for example between 1989 and 19 1989 in 1993 interest in business courses declined 24 percent. Allied Health interest was up 66 percent. And the system was able to move resources to respond to that kind of very rapid and dynamic change since merger over 290 courses programs have been dropped and 263 added. So you can see that the university has been quite active in responding to changes in what the market wants what our students want what our citizens want. What you need to let more people know about it perhaps you don't have more questions like that from Maryland. We head over to Stout now Joy.

Hi Beth. I'm here with a vice chancellor emeritus at UW out west face who has some thoughts on solutions for the UW system. I think that the Rangers would seriously look at a study of how we use our facilities resources and more specifically the time. We have large amounts of the times during the year when our faculties the best educated people in the country and our resources the most expensive in the city that are not in full utilization. And I think that we ought to consider different ways to use time. We've acted as if the semester was God given. I think there various ways that we can form time around educational learning blocks and make much better use of the facilities and staff of our staff does become more productive obviously they'll need to be paid more for it. But I think students could go through more rapidly if the courses were available on we're often at various times. Let's let Madison chew on that one with David Ward. Go ahead David. One is I think the issue of privacy this is public and relevancy. I would just put the employability of UW graduates on the line and say that by any

statistical data I have seen they get employed which suggests that the rest of the education is relevant. And you also want to believe in a general as well as a professional education because people have several jobs we don't want precise professional training. We want education as well. So that would be one point I think we are trying to be educational and not simply professional institutions. The other one I think there's a very good point made by that question and that is the structure of the curriculum. I think universities could be much more flexible in terms of how different kinds of courses languages for example could be taught. And I think the semester system is a little bit of an unnecessarily restraint on how we do learning. So I agree with that. Let's get some concerns from three people who have concerns about the kind of system this is and what they'd like to see in the way of a UW system. Let's just sort of work our way down the line here about your concerns. Well the regents report mentions streamlining and throughput like we're going to turn our colleges into factories and the distance education seems to be removing students away from from

instructors. OK so the humanity of the of the institution itself and how we're going to preserve that which is part of what you're concerned about as well. Well yeah definitely. But my main concern is you know I'm I'm a foreign student from Burma. And when you know we are attracted to this like world class university we're not attracted just to learning facts and technology and skills but we're attracted to the traditional Democratic tradition that this institution is supposed to cherish. And so my my major concern is you know I mean our region sensitive enough to the role that this university is supposed to historically play in strengthening democracy in this country and fostering democratic ideals outside the United States. Yeah. And I just wanted to add a little bit more about diversity I want to thank the Board of Regents for their support with the design for diversity program at Chancellor word for supporting the goals of the Civil Rights Coalition but I want to know if you can include a statement on diversity. All right. I think you can hear the kinds of concerns that are being spoken here which really are different than some of

what's being represented in the current Regents report. There are certain human ness and humanity that people are concerned about would you respond to that please. The university system is committed to creating a diverse population among its students and among its staff. And there will be a statement I believe in the final document which will reaffirm the university the university system its commitment to achieving diversity. I also. Believe. Thank you. I also believe that in terms of the university system's commitment to democratic ideals and fostering those democratic ideals throughout the world is one that the system firmly believes in and has done quite a bit to foster for example we will find that many of the I call them the second tier leaders and some of the emerging economic

powers in the continent of Africa and and in the Middle East and Asia. Many of those leaders are leaders that have been prepared in American schools. And so I think that's something that we are committed to as well. Richard Randall thank you. Let's go back to a question now in Wausau. Go ahead. Thank you Dave. And because I am here in Wausau we want to make the point that there is a two year center system. We have a student here who actually went to a four years for university they came back and and why is that. I'm because I didn't know what I wanted to do. I feel that the high schools and their guidance counselors should push you to your centers because it's more affordable. It'll keep tuitions down because you'll have all the students coming into to your first free up. A lot of space in a four year college. OK we've got affordability we've got access we've got quality Dean Massee go ahead and sell your your two year university here with the UW centers are really ideal place for students to explore a variety of areas where gateways for so many majors

within the UW system. If a student is not sure what Major they're going into their chances for exploring majors in freshman seminar programs and of course the affordability of the two year centers is a major major factor when students can live at home save the money and use that money for transfer. It's a big plus for them and their parents and not said Regence don't forget about the to your system because it does answer so many of the problems. Back to you Dave. By the way I think I just recognized the questionnaire from our governors debate we the people debate from last November so it's nice to see someone back at another rather people event. Go ahead please your question. We still have the problem of the 43 million dollars and the additional time that the legislature is cutting from the budget and the 10000 students that we're going to have and we have a major source of revenue that we're not tapping Now I'm not saying that Virginia has all the answers but if we had our tuition at 100 percent because right now it only covers a third of the cost. Then all these major sources of student financial aid both national and even state would send more money to the

UW system if we have low tuition. This is unbelievable. Student Financial Aid systems give more money when the costs are higher there are costs are high. So you're saying UW tuition both in-state and out-of-state should be a lot higher. Yes 100 percent. Then we will have a student financial aid program for 70 80 percent of our students the way the private institutions do. The way Virginia does and we'll get that some of the tax money we send to Washington will come back here Catherine. That's an idea that's a very interesting one and it's been discussed at considerable length. I think the main concern that many of us have had about the high tuition and high aid approach is that we'll get the high tuition part without the aid part and particularly where the high aid part would depend upon the state and federal governments. Maintaining or increasing their aid programs in the present environment at any rate.

It appears that that is going the other direction. And so I think the hesitancy that many of us have had about the high high tuition hide formula is a fear that we'll only get half of it. Kevin I'll thank you. Thank you Dave. We're going to wrap up things here at the Wassa Center. First of all I want to thank region or for being here. And Dina Massey because they answered some of the questions because we have many here the town hall meeting that we attended about a week and a half ago. The issues are the same. Just a little bit different but please keep our university system keep it affordable keep the quality there. And for many of these young people who even did not speak here to night. But but but let us get into classes so when we decide what it is we want to do when we grow up we can get into a four year institution and get out of your hair. But I guess that's up to to the regions to decide how much it's going to cost and whether that access is going to be there when the younger people younger than those here today are ready to attend college. So many questions need to be answered but again I think part of the solution is a two tier system. And so from

Wassa they're saying don't forget about us. Joy carding and stout. Thanks Beth. We've had differing questions and concerns come up here at the UW stout tonight but there seems to be a genuine concern that we guard the future quality of the UW system while at the same time we make sure we're getting our money's worth and to make sure the system is accountable. I'd like to turn to Representative Kreisberg for one final comment and maybe a prediction on how the legislature is going to be dealing with the future of the UW system. Well I think there's a direct correlation between well-educated workforce and a healthy economy and I think the UW system really has been the driving engine in the economic expansion we've seen in this state. The legislature has its work cut out for us because clearly we want to maintain quality expand access during tight fiscal times where people don't want their taxes raised so it will be a difficult challenge. Thanks very much for being with us and by the way this discussion will continue Monday morning at 7:00. Representative Chris Beck we'll take your questions and calls when he joins Tom Clarke on his call in radio program on the ideas network of Wisconsin Public

Radio. Dave. We have time just to squeeze in a question or two. But in the end this does come back to a question of money and what the legislature will do. One last question on that. Yeah. I want to know from the legislators and the spokesperson from the governor's office is the legislature and the governor willing to make the financial commitment to keep the world class university system that we have here in the state. All right let's do a quick survey of the legislators who are here first. Representative Hutchinson. Well I'm sure that we're going to take it very seriously. I want to put a plug in for distance education. I think that that's one area that we've basically touched the tip of the iceberg on it's very important for throughout the state. But as far as the legislature is going to be very tough because we have the tax situation that we have to take care of. And but I think again the colleges and universities are so important that we will be very careful with them. Well I think the legislature made a mistake. The legislature can find money for prisons they can find money for other things they ought to be able to find money for education. The cut was not unusual. Everyone else was asked to cut. That's the tenor of the times when

you hear about 20 percent or something more than that getting remedial treatment. Why aren't we going back to high schools and saying we pay you six grand a year to educate these kids the college level you've failed. Why do we have to then pay for it all over again at the university system. All right I'm afraid we're just going to have to leave it there with one quick last word from Catherine Lyle and Mike Beebe about the state of the university and how precarious the situation may be and what's ahead of us next. Well my sense in watching your report on the Virginia situation was that what happened in Virginia was that they let their university system go over the precipice and they now recognize that and they're pulling it back up at the cost of I think they said 200 million dollars right now we've not gone over the precipice yet. And I think it's very important that we not do that. The cost of pulling back up is really enormous compared to holding what we have and then you are a wonderful asset we have here. We will we will leave it. Last quick word Margaret. Go ahead. Other states have faced problems much more difficult than ours because the economy of their

states have been terrible. We have had the luxury of sustaining this world class university system because our economy is strong. And I think we're in good shape and we'll get even better in the future. All right. Well I'm told our credits are already rolling but that's all right we can keep talking. What do we need to do to continue this conversation. David Ward in the next few weeks because Decision Day is coming up I think is to understand the resources that are available from the public nationwide and at the state level putting a terrific squeeze on us and that there is a relationship between resources and quality. And my view is that over the last five years we've been coping with. All right. With that we really will have to close. Thank you all for joining us tonight. We the People special on the future of the UAW. Dave Iverson. Goodnight everyone. We the People Wisconsin the future of the UW system is a co-production of Wisconsin Public Television. Wisconsin State Journal Communications Group Wisconsin

Public Radio and WIO CTV Madison. Community partners include Auclair leader telegram Wausau Daily Herald WSJ w Wausau WDSU TV Auclair and w exo W TV Lacross. We the people of Wisconsin the future of the UW system is sponsored by. Wisconsin Education Association Council. Miller Brewing Company. BlueCross BlueShield United of Wisconsin Wisconsin power and light Foundation. And the Pew Center for civic journalism. Washington D.C.