Evening Exchange; DC Council Chairman David Clarke, J. Clay Smith and Black Lawyers, African-American Burial Ground

Play. DAVID CLARK The chairman of the D.C. City Council a unique archaeological find in the history of America's black lawyers all up next on evening. Exchange a day just weeks after being sworn in as chairman of the D.C. City Council. Dethklok has hit the ground running so to speak. That evening I'm called Anandi. This is evening exchange. The veteran lawmaker has warned that the city cannot afford a teacher's pay raise that was negotiated last fall. While he has called on the council to reject the contract Mr. Clark has urged the teachers to reopen its contract negotiations. The chairman says he will continue to push for

implementation of the district's gun liability law that is now being challenged in the U.S. Court of Appeals. And what about those rumors that the city is headed for bankruptcy. We'll talk about that and much more. But first happy birthday. Oh thank you very much. We decided to start on a friendly note. This is your first visit to the council chair after this as hostility all the way. I don't know. I hope not but we are. We appreciate it. Let's talk about the budget because there are rumors that we could face bankruptcy next fall it is my understanding that right now the city has what might be characterized as a cash flow problem. Yes that. I'm going to find that I go coach or that's a big question I wanted to ask you. What a cash flow problem means is that at certain periods of the year the money's not coming in. In other periods of year it comes in very high. And so when you go into those dips you don't want to get to the point that you have no cash because you keep paying your bills and getting paychecks.

What the city historically did at that point is usually in July or August was it went out and borrowed just a short term borrowing to carry it over until the real property taxes came in in September. Now that date looks like it's back up to April when we will hit that point of a low point. The tragedy of it is that the people in the District of Columbia pledged their credit and the city went out and borrowed 330 some million dollars 36 36 out in 1991 to get rid of the accumulated general fund deficit which we used to hear about a lot. And then to provide a cash cushion for the times just like this. And so the question is why are we here. It's a good question. Question about which I'm going to be propounding questions myself because we borrow the money so that we would be here. That money gets spent somewhere. Now why I'm a little bit confused is because our fiscal year now begins on October 1st. It used to begin on July 1st. Is that correct. A long long time ago I think you're being pressured into the tax year change through the fiscal year.

Yes. A long long time ago all of our years begin on July 1st. All of our money years of the fiscal year went sort of nationally to October 1st and we went with it. But our tax years stayed the allway July. And what the city council did last year was change the tax year to the fiscal year. That's providing a bit of a problem. People sell their houses one quarter. That's not clear whether it's the seller or the buyer that has to pay for it. We're going to have hearings on that issue and other tax issues on November 5th and 6th. Another source of my confusion therefore is that if this is the beginning of fiscal year nineteen ninety four we are just in the 13th day of this fiscal year. Should we not have encumbered already the entire budget the fiscal year 1994. And why therefore should we have any kind of cash flow problem this early in the fiscal year. Are you saying we're not expecting it until April. Well you don't encumber something to you write out the check or you write find the

contract in that way. But that comes on down the road what the projection that we will have the negative cash flow April was made upon as the revenues that are expected to be coming in at that time as well as the expenses that are going out and that's monitored on a monthly basis. The real hard problem is that the revenues keep going down. That's the real hard. And for a variety of reasons for a variety of reasons and expenditures stay at your level or go up again for a variety of reasons but a little bit more controlled than the revenues going down. So if there is a projection that we can have such a Castro problem what do we do. Well that's that's the next question we have to ask. We are always asking the question Why what are we going to do. I have talked briefly with the mayors people they've spoken publicly about the possibility of going out and trying to collect some of the things that haven't been collected before their accounts receivable which I think is a fantastic idea. If you recall during the campaign I

pointed out there were 160 million dollars of such things they're talking about possibly selling some assets so your personal property assets and maybe even the real property assets. But the real property is in the capital of budget. And the operating budget it in order to try to do with as well as looking at the cost and what have to be cut back a point in that area. Well it's not a fun time. It's true that while there may not be agreement on every detail there seems to be agreement between the mayor and the council that we do have to take seriously our financial or fiscal situation at all times. Do you find that this job is not your job that is you are chairman of the council from 83 to 91 and now you hear again just a little more than two years later. Is this the same old job. Well in some ways it is certainly dealing with the colleagues it is and I recognize it's in the period of 83 to 89 particularly around the years 86 87 88 that we were doing things in those boom times when

all the money was coming in. That was going to give us a problem if we went into a recession. We were hiring just hiring hiring hiring middle management people high management people just bringing on on on with the extra money that was coming in from all those buildings that are going up them down. And I kept telling the mayor we have to stop the hiring or if we get into a recession we're going to face the firing and that's where we are. I rather frankly would be back there in the 80s when I would say if you know and maybe get somebody to listen to me like I did like I tried to do back then than half would be doing right now with the people that are getting fired. I had employees in today from one agency in which 128 people are being let go. And I had to call quickly down the bureau traffic adjudication yesterday because no hearing examiners were hearing cases that was told to me and went down or the director told me Well you have to understand we were handing out Riffe notices today and everybody was in meetings and that's happening throughout the government right now as people get these businesses. No these are not happy times the best times with a very early homebrewed years.

When I went down with the great ideas about what we can do new that hadn't been done before. Now it's a question of what what can we hold onto. Well the new law politics and this is that if what they're doing the good times then you have to be doing that as well. So let's talk a little bit about what's happening with the teachers because some people might be a little bit confused about that. Let me see if I get the sequence of events straight. First there was a contract negotiated last fall between the school board and the Washington teacher's union but no contract is valid in the city until it is approved by the city council so that contract was not approved by the city council and then earlier this year in the winter the mayor then City Council Chair John Wilson and a few council members got together with I think some school board members and negotiated a new agreement that an agreement that was negotiated early that early this year it is my understanding was never sent over by the mayor to the city council for approval and so wasn't formally approved. The last thing I know is that you were reported saying to the school board to the teacher's union

take the six point five percent increase that was was put out in the budget for you in fiscal year 1993 because we don't have money to pay you anymore and if you don't take that it's over. Well the sequence isn't quite that way but only at belaboured first under our collective bargaining law. The employees bargaining unit and the management sit down and try to negotiate something that happened to schools in good faith school board and the teachers union negotiated the pay rates before it was transmitted to the mayor by the school board. Mr. Wilson Mrs. Kelly and Mr. Hall sat down and they agreed on a great plan for the schools part of which involved cutting 880 people part of which involved closing schools and no other part which provided the whole school budget there'd be no cuts in the school budget in that budget that they agreed to that the city council voted and the mayor signed. There was money for a 6.5 percent

increase for 19. Ninety three and six 4.5 and nineteen 94. And what had been negotiated back in 1992 of course of that was different. So when I got into office what I found was a budget was 6.5 for 93 and 4.5 for 94 in an agreement sitting on the mayor's desk since April 4 that had been negotiated. And there was lots of things to say how are we going to get the teachers the money all folks will come up with different ideas. But I felt the collective bargaining process had to be respect. So what I said and I took the lead on it and I took the weight on it too. I said to the mayor please send it over the collective bargaining process. The law requires that you don't have to support it. The law says you have that option don't you don't have to support it. Send it over. And I asked the council to reject it and then it by law it doesn't mean nothing happens it means it goes back to the bargaining table between collective bargaining and management in this case the school board and the teachers in and I would recommend to them that they they negotiate

6.5 percent for 93 and 4.5 percent for 94. And I will ask the council in its resolution but we can't pay them anything for that too. No. OK. And in the end in the resolution rejecting it I will have the council commit on paper and the resolution to approve the retransmitted negotiating period. So what has effectively done is put the issue back on the bargaining table put every dollar that is in those two budgets for the pay raise on the bargaining table for the teachers to accept or reject. Now I said you do need to hurry and accept that if you're going to accept it because the 93 money is in the last period in 93 fiscal year ended September 30th and we're in that period where we're closing the books and if it doesn't get done before the books are close then that money lapses is just not available. If they can do it by November 1st then I can read up on a council

meeting on November 2nd and the teachers can have their pay raise by Christmas. And what they will get now this is important I'm going to give them that for a teacher who is earning three 30 the average pay level of $35000 a year that will get a lump sum payment of over $2000 one lump sum. Well taxes taken out but went on something and then their pay will increase by at eleven point nine percent which is the compound the result of the 6.5 and the 4.5. So they got a lump sum payment of about $2000 this year making $35000 a year. And your overall raise will be eleven point two percent. Yes. Now that still has to be technically negotiated between the school board and the Washington Teachers Union. There was some indication according to the report in the newspaper that you said in your letter that teachers union president Jimmy Jackson had in fact

agreed to that she had agreed to the process laid out get it back on the table. No she never agreed to the terms she said she had to take that to her members and but she did agree to the process. And so you're you hoping everybody is hoping it would appear that that's the process that they'll go forward at this point. Well I have listened to the Washington Teachers Union hotline. I've called it up and make sure what they're being told on their hotline and Ms. Jackson Doctor Jackson is saying that they are going back to renegotiation. I've checked with the school board the school. Mr. Hall is committed to me and to the mayor to offer on the table 6.5 for 93 and 4.5 or 94. So I presume that offer has been or will be made as soon as they set a table. It is then up to the teachers. They can reject it and go on and fight in the future for some more. And Tony there's not too much in the city there that they're better off than a lot of other people right now in terms of pay rates.

They will say however that we are not as well off as those teachers in surrounding jurisdictions that are pay scales and not the same as theirs. What can you say. Well at the bottom levels and sometimes the top levels in the middle levels yes we are. And the scale of that is is another issue. And I agree that teachers need the money and I think if you look at all the other things that we're not being able to do right now the fact that we are going to be able to give the school teachers eleven point twenty nine percent pay increase I think is putting them in a positive result positive relationship to other city workers right now. OK let's go to the telephone. Thank you for waiting call here on the air. Go ahead please. Yes good evening. I would like to ask Chairman why aren't any layoffs that currently underway if you may recall in 1991 the mayor stated that he would want to fire 2000 employees. Now we realized that she only fired one hundred six. And the process that was you are requesting you said

suspended part of the personnel regulation. But if she could simply point a finger and say Your job is excessive You have to go this time around. Will the chairman be involved or would the council be involved in setting up a structure for that. Everybody would be treated fairly. Because I'm at the barest process. If a particular employee did not like you he could simply say that your job with access fire where you could protect is by simply not putting your name on it. Thank you. I'm going to try to do that in the introduction of legislation as soon as I can. Do you do it right now. My days are just packed with people coming. I'm talking about just what the caller is talking about. However the current rifts that are going into effect were voted upon by the City Council in March and again in June excuse me July of this year. And a number 3400 and the mayor has said under the powers that she has in the charter which she does have when the revenues don't equal

expenditures she can go through and cut any more that she wants to. Even without counsel and Bob that is a power that she has. I would like to see the city council get back in there with the hard decisions and that means that we are going to have to vote as to where the cuts are going to be. Sometimes it's politically difficult but sometimes the legislature might just want to allow the executive to have that. I do believe that we have to step in there and make those hard decisions ourselves as well. Back to the telephone. Your turn. Calling you on the air. Go ahead please. Good evening. I understand that there is a lot more bigger problem by with a little problem about this than ever. And I would like to know what when you have wrecked it let me give you an example one example I had three months ago I ordered a tracking and I haven't gotten it yet. I understand why the guy in the right track is everybody that there's a backlog. I mean I'm willing to pay

both and when I pick up I'm willing to do whatever it takes to get one right now. With that I'll answer that question because we're running out of time. Call me or my office tomorrow with your your name sir. We'll make an inquiry and I don't know if it's one person or not but I know that almost every service right now there are fewer people providing the services than used to provide them before. That's what we're going through right now. That is the recession that we've been talking about here. That is the issue that we talked about a moment ago but they're not being a money after April to pay for anything unless we do some very difficult things. And when I checked you ask me what is different what is different now than it was before. It's having to talk to persons like yourself. You can see me right now I can see you having to talk to you and tell you that we can't we can't do all the things that we used to do and we're going to have to set some priorities as to what is what is important. But if you call me I will try to see if we can move it along and move it back to the telephone call and see Tony when you go ahead with the money.

Mr. Chairman my question back to Mitt Romney and it seemed as though we had the wrong guy. And we passed problems down at that down. And now you've brought him back. That moment that was. Let me ask you my question. And what I'm with you. Tell me how you feel about bringing down the government that you got in. And how are going to question. Will you. Thank you. Well I generally would want to give a preference to people who are from the district on it and who would know the operation. I was advised by the mayor this morning when she introduced the perspective of her nominee for fire chief to me that she had a citizen process that went to work in either a strong majority or unanimous chorus came forth

from that citizens group in recommendation of the candidate. And I certainly would take that into consideration at the time that the candidate comes before the committee on the judiciary for confirmation hearings to be set at such time as the chairperson of that committee chair or council member nations and sets them. I think he will be asked questions first whether he can put out a fire. And I think that's essential for a fire fire person. But secondly about how to make good use of the resources within the department. And third how to create a team within the department that department has just suffered from so many different groups within it always at each other sometimes they've had a racial dynamic Sometimes they've had a functional dynamic such as when people are doing medical services. Our considered as a small child of the people who were in the fire services et cetera. And that to me is going to be a very big issue as to how I'd vote on his nomination before we go. I have to ask you about gun liability because now there's a case before the U.S. Court of Appeals

trying to throw out a law that you work very hard for and during your campaign complained that the police and the Metropolitan Police Department were not in your view enforcing properly. How do you feel about the case of first on the issue. What is before the U.S. Court of Appeals is an appeal by four congressmen who sued the city to try to compel us to send this law up for a second congressional review it will look for a first and they did not reject it. They also have introduced legislation in the Congress to repeal it directly by the Congress that failed in committee. So what they're trying to do now is get the court to have it come back up under the review procedures. Most of our legislation goes under because they can get that to the floor of the house through parliamentary procedures that are different and they want to use those. They've they've lost it the lower court judge gazelle turned them down. The NRA sued twice on this once on this issue went from Superior Court to the Court of Appeals. They lost both times before the U.S. Court of Appeals. We expect when. And now my argument my efforts to get the police department I hope are

coming to some success I have a draft of some information that I received. But I think the chief will be presenting to the committee on the judiciary when we have the oversight hearings on the department on Friday between now and Friday. I will look at the area and see whether it's what we need or not. If it's not continue my push is off thank you very much all for what they have done. But I've begun to see some movement and certainly told the mayor and the chief that I wanted to cooperate with him and public safety but they had to cooperate with me on this issue. David Clark the newly installed chairman of the D.C. City Council. It's a job he has held before but this time around it's a slightly different job and maybe it's appropriate. Just as the beginning of this new term you're celebrating your birthday today. Happy birthday. We are out of time in this segment when we come back we'll talk about the unique history of the black lawyer in America. Stay with us. Welcome back. While the names Charles Hamilton Houston and the Alexander Looby may

not be household names they and hundreds of other black lawyers throughout the country valiantly struggled to ensure that the rights of their clients were not violated. All were familiar with the outstanding work of Justice Thurgood Marshall the black lawyers who preceded him have often been unrecognized and therefore unheralded. That is until now. Dr. J. Clay Smith Jr. is a professor of law here at Howard University. He has written a new book entitled The Making of the black lawyer 1844 to 1944. The book is called emancipation. That Smith's book is one of the first comprehensive histories of the black lawyer. Welcome. Clay Smith once again the evening exchange and I think about the irony of this name because if you were writing a book about white lawyers in America today you probably wouldn't call it emancipation because the reputation of lawyers as a whole has become so besmirched that only the tradition of a black lawyer as I guess is still in people's minds associated with the whole notion of emancipation is

that what you call the title. Essentially yes but his the history also shows that many black lawyers moved white lawyers to assist them and the emancipation of black people which is an interesting twist and something that surprised me when I was doing the research. Well let's talk about how long ago you started this work because the the forward to this book was written by Justice Thurgood Marshall who is no longer with us but that is only a minor indication of how long ago you started. Well I started on this book when I came to Howard Law School after a lecture by Herbert O'Ree who was my professor and legal methods and he gave and he started talking about black lawyers and I went to the library after the lecture and I could not find a book on black lawyers and that is when I began to search for the history of black lawyers in America that was around 1964 when I started middle 60s it's been twenty nine years since you started research on this book and it's finally finished.

This is I think a lifetime reference for people who are interested in the history of black laureates. But I'm glad you mentioned the relationship with white lawyers because you mentioned earlier in your introduction that this work is comparable in some ways to the works of Charles Warren who wrote a history of the American Bar in 1911 and Anton Hermann quotes two of the history of the legal profession in America in 1965 neither of those two books according to you mentioned one black lawyer. No they did not. Yet in your undertaking of emancipation there was no bitterness in your heart. And therefore you felt it necessary to simply tell the truth. I had to face the facts. I don't think those two great scholars knew the facts. I search for the facts and I was very liberal in trying to identify white lawyers who had aided black lawyers because that's how black lawyers began when making Bowland Allen in 1844 became the first black lawyer admitted

in the state of Maine. He studied under a white lawyer after black lawyers began to multiply and divide and become greater in numbers. They they they themselves begin to train the second generation of black lawyers and their offices as you know there was not a law school during those as a matter of fact I wanted you to explain that because now we tend to think of Laura as this people who go to law school for three years and who pass a bar exam and then can practice law. That's not what make them. BOLLING Did Megan BOLLING Allen did take a bar in Massachusetts and in Maine because he was not defined as a citizen then the nation didn't recognize black people as citizens so he had to take the bar. But there was another system outside of law school by which you prepared to practice law. Right. When you studied with a lawyer or a judge for a year apprenticeships or a year to 18 months. And then after completion you normally either if you were a citizen and whites were able to be admitted blacks

took the bar examination and make an bowling. Bowling Alley was admitted in 1844 in in Maine in the state of Maine. And then he went to the state of Massachusetts becoming the first black lawyer admitted in the state of Maine the first black lawyer admitted in Massachusetts. Another interesting fact John Mercer Langston he applied for law school in the year 1850. Tell us a story. Well John Mercer Langston who by the way is the first dean of Howard University School of Law before he in his formative days he applied to a law school and in New York. And when they when he went to the school to be they said look you can't come here unless you declare yourself white since he was a fair skinned man his father was white his mother was Indian and black. And they said the only way you can come here because we have a lot of our students come from the south and you have to declare

yourself a Spaniard or a Frenchman but you cannot declare yourself as black. And he chose to maintain his heritage and refused to do that. And later he the same thing happened to him at the University of Cincinnati. They would not let John Mercer or Langston either as you know he subsequently became the first black 18:6. You came to the dean of the Howard Law School in 1869 1868 18:6 the school opened in 1869 and he was our first Dean. The first thing he later was thought of as being a good choice for a vice presidential candidate at one time in 1880. That's right. And 1880s he was considered for the first time in history of being the vice president of United States and yet the individual who wrote the foreword to your book Justice Marshall still couldn't get into the University of Maryland Law School in the 1930s. No. And eventually he had to sue after he became a lawyer so that Donald Murray could become

the first black to be admitted to that law school. Justice Marshall took great pride in that. I think it was really wonderful for him whenever he talked about it just he smiled broadly. He really liked that revenge. When did he write this forward. Justice Marshall wrote this forward. This is 1990 in 1992 OK in February 9th Let's talk about the District of Columbia for a second because Emanuel Hewlett was the first black lawyer to be admitted to the bar in the District of Columbia. No Sean was Sean I'm sorry. Yes. George Borja for sure. He was the first DC admission in 1869. Right. I was interested in Emanuel Hewlett because I want to read a segment of the book in which he describes or you describe what he I guess describe as happening here back in 1880. Eight years and it seems so similar to a lot of what we discuss today. Can I go ahead. Shirley in 1888 Hewlett and another black lawyer James Ricks publicly defended

black citizens who were frequently portrayed by the press as being prone to criminal conduct. HULETT described as a prominent colored lawyer stated that more than a third of the cases made against colored people were unjust and that policed made arrests to keep up the record. HULETT came claim that blacks convicted of crimes by the court did not have a real trial because the negroes had no means to engage a lawyer. James Ricksen 1886 law graduate of Howard University Law School agreed with Hewlett's youth adding that the crimes committed by blacks in the District of Columbia were caused and we're quoting here because of influences under which the comparisons to today are fine. Simply amazing is fascinating that quote I found in the Morlan room in the inn and in the old newspapers and when I went I found that quote The reason I put it in there I absolutely agree with you that I cannot distinguish between the present day and that day. And there are many finds that I found across the nation. Georgia Mississippi California where the black lawyers said the

same thing. So the question is is whether or not the people the little people of the country. Why did they continue to have faith in the justice system of the country. They continue to have faith in and the judicial and the justice system of the United States because of people like rechts Nuland. Those were the people that caused people to pledge allegiance to the United States flag to buy into the Constitution to support the nation to go to war. It was Thurgood Marshall those people because people truly believed that the black lawyer represented for them a vehicle to obtain justice in America. And now there seems to be a great deal of confusion about exactly whom the black lawyer represents and whether or not this can legitimately be described as civil rights cases if you will. We have the Reginald Denny beating case that's currently taking place in Los Angeles California in which clearly some black people have Barett believe that that there are civil rights issues involved. We had the so-called Wilding case in New York a few years ago.

The Central Park jogger in which people believed there were civil rights issues involved. Is it that these cases are now more complex and the choices for the average black lawyer today in criminal cases are a little more difficult. I think that you raise a real critical inquiry and that is the extent to which the other person in the country the black person in the country the unrepresented really believes that justice is available to them in the society and it concerns me because I think black lawyers some black lawyers are no longer involved in the community and therefore the people don't see that black lawyer as being in their community they see the lawyer generally as being out there not in here. And so when you see black lawyers undertaking cases in the danny case I do think that it restores faith. However the case comes out I think that people will say that there was someone there that they could that they can identify

who is trying to do the best they could to seek justice. The common thread that runs through just about all of the black lawyers you describe in this book between 1844 and 1944 is that they all seem to feel that the law was most important because it was the medium through which they could find a basis for arguing for equality for black people emancipation. I think that every time the black life Justice Marshall said when I went down to see Alexander Looby There's a story that I found where Justice Marshall went down so long as Alexander Luby was there. The people knew that Justice Marshall Looby would freedom and even if they were not successful they felt great a great sense of pride that the effort was made to emancipate them and to protect them from illegal state activity. And up until in 1944 when this book ends black lawyers were still having trouble getting admitted to the bar being allowed to practice after they were admitted

to the bar but I want to take a quick jump up to 1993 because the next issue of Emerge Magazine and if we can just take a look at the cover of the next issue of Emerge Magazine the November issue has a picture of Justice Clarence Thomas you can see if you look to your left I've seen the issue. Oh you've already seen the issue. I saw the cover and he's wearing a handkerchief on his head and of course you know what a handkerchief head is intended to imply. But I just wanted to read one very small segment of that and asked for your comments on it says black conservatives have long argued that with the passage of the civil rights legislation of the 1960s African-American citizens have gained full citizenship. They say blacks should stop petitioning the courts for help in achieving equality and focus on economic development. Thomas They claim represents a new generation of black leadership that believes in letting the free market determine the success or failure of the black community not the courts and there's a quote here from one of our regular panelists on our Friday news analysis from Barry Myers who said Clarence Thomas is exactly what we need for

the 21st century. Once again it seems we are really debating the issue of Dubois and Booker T Washington. Depends again on whether you think the courts Congress and the president are going to uplift black Americans or whether there are some things that black Americans must do to uplift themselves. Is there a fundamental change taking place in this legacy or is it a peripheral church. See I don't think that's true that we're arguing but Booker T and W.B. Dubois because clearly in emancipation I found substantial evidence that Booker T Washington supported litigation and civil rights. There is no question no doubt in my mind that remains. And so I think that today that both the economic liberty and the equality liberty battles must go hand-in-hand the courts must not be closed to our claim of emancipation. And is it any more than the free marketplace ought to be close. We need both. We must concentrate on both and we must emancipate. You think that's a false dichotomy

that's being made. It's a very false dichotomy and it's one where the society that we live in a legal society. There's nothing that the law doesn't touch even the marketplace. Well I should point out that this issue of Emerge magazine contains an article in which some people who supported Clarence Thomas during the nomination hearings in 1991 are claiming that as a result of some decisions they're now disappointed with him and it's an issue that we will discuss at great length in the very shortly in the future let me go to the telephone. It is your turn call here on there. Go ahead please. Yes. Good evening I'd like to ask your guest. He brought up the fact that there are that it would seem that attorneys are separate from the community and I'm just I guess I'd just ask him to maybe give us some insight on how the community can reach out to them that may be support because as he just said it's a pillar of society and we must have this kind of representation across the board in every issue from utility fights back to rent issue. How do we get

people to be responsible and I know I should say no. But if he mentions people in school right now once they graduate it's a little different I'm speaking more on an ongoing basis so that we have a voice and communication and dialogue. The people aren't in classes. I think that the that the bar the organized Bar Associations have to create an environment for the lawyers and the community to gather and to exchange information and ideas. They have made some efforts both the black bar and the majority bar have made some efforts but I don't think that the effort is great enough. We have the pool and people youth and let them understand what the law is all about and we and the lawyers must understand the new thinking that is going on in the community and there is new thinking that is going on in a community that's going to take us into the new century. So that's one recommendation that I would make in response to your plight. Back to the telephone you're on the air. Caller go ahead.

Good evening Professor Smith. I was wondering I have one question I've read about all of us. It's my understanding that there are currently only or we have other with other central and of course Howard out of those law school admissions policy and in our school Aaron. And you you see the demise of black law schools as the current policy. Right. Thank you Howard University will it will be 125 years old next year. The black lawyer in the United States will be 150 years old next year. The culture of Howard Law School and the culture within the historical black institutions certainly it's very important and I don't think that the I think that it can accommodate admissions and I think that the

Black Law School is here to stay. And I do not see them going away. What I see is whether or not black Americans really have confidence in their historically black institutions because the world out there is saying to them that black no longer is is is is relevant and therefore many outstanding and brilliant students are seeking to find information and education elsewhere. We are receiving back at Howard Law School many students who have sought to find their destiny elsewhere and have finally come home to receive a diversified education where there is a cultural base that will carry them forward back to the telephone. It's your turn. Caller you're on the air. Go ahead please. No. I'm on a I won't worry about you about your guest mentioned a minute ago a lawyer a day or father or

we drive an automobile. First time that he was driving a load went out. He went with the street car track. We're on the north side of it or with a very narrow gate in the car and heard the car in the light. Maybe you'd be part company with driving on the road. That the fact one side of the street had one. OK. Thank you very much. It is just one of the stories of a lot of the member of the lawyer. You can read about in the book it's called emancipation the making of the black lawyer 1844 to 1944 by J. Clay Smith Jr. and those of you especially interested in D.C. you read how the first black woman admitted to the bar in D.C. Charlotte Ray 1872 was a corporate lawyer but couldn't get any business so had to end up being a teacher in Brooklyn. Thank you very much for this book and good luck to you. Thank you so much.

That's all the time we have in the segment when we come back we'll talk about an archaeological goldmine if you will stay. On. Come back some two years ago are clearing a construction site for a Manhattan office building. Workers

found the remains of several hundred African slaves or several hundred Africans some were apparently free men after further excavation of the site. It was realized that the so-called Negro burial ground at Foley Square was the largest single source of information on African-Americans in colonial America. How would you give us the anthropology department who was awarded the rights to study these remains remains and artifacts date back to the early 18th century maybe even the late 17th century and will offer a glimpse a rare glimpse into the lives of slaves in early America the negro burial ground at Foley Square has been called the find of the century. Joining us to talk about it Dr. Michael Blakey the director of the African biblio project. Michael good to have you back. Thank you. Last time we were here there were a number of obstacles to your acquisition of this property and this research and I remember Congressman Gus Savage was saying that a lot of people didn't want these bones looked at. They simply wanted them to be buried properly. But there's just too much information.

Well that's right. We were in the throes of of a struggle a year ago or so when I spoke with you last and in many ways we resolved that we won the struggle. I like to think of it sort of in the way that Fidel Castro would speak of the Cuban revolution that when the war is over you haven't really won the revolution but you have won the right to have to make a revolution. So we have won the right to engage in the study of the artifacts and skeletal remains of the African Burial Ground. In other words one the right to do what is likely to be the hardest work you have ever done in your life. Absolutely. A labor of love. How. Well there's so much to be gone through on this let us try to explain it to our viewers how this occurred. First the General Services Administration was involved in a construction site in Manhattan came upon some for the bodies of some four hundred Africans.

That's right. The General Services Administration was building a 34 storey office tower in lower Manhattan very close to city hall. And whenever that kind of construction takes place archaeologists have to be involved to determine whether there is any impact on cultural an area of cultural significance. And essentially General Services Administration sought to erect its building on the burial ground and to expeditiously have the archaeologists archaeologists and Fenn's going anthropologists who had no background in African-American or African research these were from Lehman College Lehman College and the contractors as well. And so there was a struggle on the part of the African-American community primarily in New York to see that the site was properly memorialized. That's one thing and that led to Congress stepping in to stop construction on one half of that block which will serve for the memorial.

But that was something that the General Services Administration had promised to do and did not do well. There were a number of compliance standards that they did not meet. One was to create a have there archaeologist create a research design that was acceptable on a map for the research to be done. And I have partly explained why that wasn't accomplished. The other thing was to be responsive to the descendant community because in this day and age you don't dig up cemetery unless you have consulted the descendant community. And they wanted a number of memorialization projects to take place and GSA was basically stonewalled those efforts. Now first and foremost is this the largest most important anthropological archaeological find in terms of Africa. Well I've heard that said before but I really can't even think in those terms. It's really our understanding of ourselves requires putting together the pieces of our history from a variety of sources. It is the

largest skeletal population 400 individuals and it is the earliest from the late 60s hundreds almost certainly forming the nexus between African-Americans and Africans. Most of them were born in Africa. So it's a key. A lot of us live persons don't understand what information you can glean from this but having read this the specific aims of what you're doing here and Howard University it is simply fascinating. Could you simply share with us what we can learn about ourselves and our ancestors and their diets and where they came from and whether they were slaves or Friedmann. How can you glean all of that from this information. And who's going to be doing all of this work. Well in a more limited and sort of shadowy way we can reproduce as our results from skeletal remains the same kind of information we would get from a living population. We can understand its structure its demography life expectancy infant mortality of the population

infectious disease rates and various other kinds of epidemiological characteristics. We can look at the population genetics to understand what African populations the people of the African Burial Ground are most closely related to. So we are reconstructing the society that live in the early 70s hundreds in which constituted the bee origins and in many respects of the African-American people explain what is meant by biological interpretive framework bio cultural I'm sorry by cultural interpreter. Well we use the biological information that I described in concert with archaeological evidence. Cultural evidence. For example we have one woman who's wearing cowries shell and glassed glass waist beads very much like what you find in certain parts of Liberia and Ghana. We have a number of individuals with filed incisor teeth

in three different styles again which allow us to make comparisons with particular cultures on the continent and we can compare those data with our biological data and also we'll use the historical documentation to put together a total picture what makes What's Howard in a unique situation to be able to do this kind of work. I read where you mentioned that the anthropological facilities that exist here. Howard but it's more than that isn't I am I believe it is one of the arguments used by our detractors who were attempting to keep us from having the remains was that we certainly could not have a facility for this kind of research and general services administration engaged a peer review panel of physical anthropologists who were essentially looking to see whether we were the best African American institution for this kind of research because that would to

use an African-American institution would be more sensitive and responsive to the Senate community which is certainly true. But in exploring the matter they discovered that indeed we have the finest laboratory facility for this kind of research of any academic institution. Partly because of the skeletal collection prepared by W. Montague Cobb that we have that has allowed us to grow into the kind of laboratory that we have. So there are two factors. One is our technical ability and the other is that we constitute a an African-American institution that sensitive to the perspectives and desires of the descendant community. Now it's my understanding that you're supposed to complete your work by nineteen ninety nine. What happens after that with the remains. Well actually the remains will be reinterred on the original Sematary side in four years and then we'll have an additional two years in which to gauge in our analysis and publication as well as in

producing computer programs for public school children and other kinds of you know user friendly means of getting that information out. And it's costing you how much and I understand you've got this by way of Grant. Well we've received a contract actually which will continue to be modified so it will grow over the course of years. The project could not be completed for less than 10 million dollars and that's really really less than what's required. Is there going to be any kind of visual work done here whether by videotape or still shooting by camera anything at all of the remains will be photographed. We'll also use digital imaging. We're very interested in exploring the new technology for morphing digital morphing which means that we could can reconstruct the face the appearance of the individuals

from the skeleton. And that's very exciting. You use the word revolution when you refer to Fidel Castro earlier. Is it an exaggeration to say that the information gleaned from these remains could revolutionize our thinking about who we are and how we got here. That's always a possibility. It certainly will contribute greatly. Look already we've broken with a number of myths the mythology which you find in all the public school textbooks is that there was no significant African presence in early New York and now here we see that 40 percent of the households in in the colony had enslaved Africans and that these were the people who built that colony that slavery was a Southern thing not a northern thing. And here we have the graphic material evidence to the contrary. That's one of the values of archaeology you have very graphic material evidence. It's very striking and convincing and it's extremely exciting I can

imagine that a lot of history texts will be rewritten when this work is all over. So good luck to you and your team of anthropology. Well may I also say that on November 5th we're having a ceremony here at Hauert to welcome the ancestral remains. And all of the public has invited symposium in the morning and the procession and the service. And I'm glad you mentioned the date because I'd also like to tell you that on Sunday November 7th Jake Smith will be at a reception 50/50 in Connecticut Avenue Northwest talking about his book emancipation. That's Sunday November 7th. 50/50 in Connecticut Avenue Northwest. That's all the time we have in this segment. Could you repeat for us again would you do it still. There will be a ceremony to welcome the ancestors on November 5th at Howard University on the main campus. All the public is invited to show respect and be respected. November 5th of November he will welcome our ancestors to Howard University

and take a short break. We'll be right back. Our.

Thanks. To all of our guests for joining us. I wore my glasses for the first time an evening exchange tonight I was only able to do that because after I lost some of the police retirement party chief Kadal the other night his mother Mrs. Vonetta Radziwill Kadal kept them for me and returned them today thank you Mother Kato. Thank you Michael Blakely and all of our other guests and thank you for your participation and evening exchange good night.