Profile; Interview with Emily Wadhams and Giovanna Peebles; Interview with Major General Martha Rainville; Interview with Judson D. Hale

We're monts intriguing and ancient heritage is at risk of being lost to remarkable women guide the work to preserve our history and our sense of community. From the very earliest artifacts to your local post office join me with Vermont's historic preservation officer Emily Wadhams and state archaeologist Yana Peebles next on profile. The preservation movement in the United States is a relatively recent one. More have a public outcry with federal urban renewal and flood control programs of the 1960s decimated neighborhoods Vermont's division of historic preservation was begun in 1905 when Giovanna Peebles was hired as a state archaeologist a position she still holds today. The historic preservation officer as a political appointment and consultant Emily Wadhams was asked to fill the post four years ago as head of the division. Wadhams presides over a vast program that includes survey inventory public education and

information on archaeological sites rural landscapes and historic buildings. The division of CIS towns and developers in planning and preservation. It is a connection to federal dollars and numerous nonprofit partners. The division maintains our state owned historic sites as much as anything these women contend by honoring our physical and environmental heritage. We are preserving our very identity and sense of community. That was such a perfect production. I don't. Think there's a lot more to say I think there's plenty to say thanks for being here today. It was like the best summary I've ever heard. Well well well and we've only just because we're going to borrow that. It's a. Perfect intro to our website. Well I think actually I just have to bring up the last time Emily was here was performing with the chapped lips I think you know you go and I know you like one of the best terrific archipelago groups there ever was and I still have never heard it. Well you're not somebody you never will. OK back to historic preservation Vermont history is really quite unique in

where historic preservation is housed in many states it's with Parks and Rec or carbs or natural resources but here it's linked. It's in the agency of Commerce and community development. How did it get there. And does that work. I mean it really works well and it's the place where we should be I think Vermont recognized early on that historic preservation is not just about historic resources but it's really about community revitalization and economic development. So they put us in the economic development office which includes the economic development office. It includes tourism and marketing it includes housing and community development and Vermont Life magazine. So we are right in the perfect place to be positioned to know what's going on in the state in these areas because the stark reservations about tourism. It's about community development and programs to revitalize our downtowns in our village centers. So we're in the perfect place about community education recreation

heritage tourism community assets like that definitely. Well I can see how it really works especially in Vermont which is so charming but isn't there you know. Economic development. I mean it sounds like these are these are really opposing forces. Are there some real problems when you have people that really feel that economic development has nothing to do with preserving our heritage or lander. I think it's easy for buildings. Yes it is very easy for buildings because they are recent their real estate basically and so their resource that we can use and reuse to revitalize our communities. Vermont's taken the position that instead of trying to control sprawl for example by coming up with penalties for sprawl development it wants to try to create incentives to reuse our downtowns in our village centers and our historic buildings. And so the economic development department which is headed by the way by Molly Lambert who used to run the Church Street Market Place so Molly is a downtown person right and really recognize the

value and the importance of our downtowns in our state. But also I think that people live in historic buildings and so many of us live in historic buildings we recreate historic buildings we go to school on historic buildings. There's a real immediacy to our historic architecture. People make money off historic buildings you redevelop them the investment tax credit which Emily will talk more about. And that's very different than archeology which is a less tangible asset typically you don't make money off of archaeological resources within a few a couple instances and we'll talk about the underwater preserves and some of our historic sites where we live it's much more hidden or archaeology you don't really know it's there in you. You started this job 25 years ago I'm just curious you know off the front. How has it changed in the last 25 years. Well when I arrived actually was July of 76 when I was hired as the first state archaeologist right out of graduate school there. Never heard of archaeology. They've never seen an archaeologist. So it was it was fun. It was definitely what you call on the job on the job training.

So we started in on the ground floor and did a lot of work with the public agencies of the state agencies forest and parks and agency transportation starting to get them to comply with very powerful state and federal laws. So then the early days there was a lot of agency work. Well people assume back then that there was no archaeology in Vermont. And what people have gradually come to recognize a lot because of g of honest work is that people have lived here for 10000 years. Right. And there is a rich archaeological record record it's not like the Southwest where they have a different climate and where they have buildings that have been preserved artifacts have been preserved. All we have is the stone that still remains in the ground very you know fire pits that are for the it's within it's very a lot of it is under the ground and you don't find it like the pueblos doesn't have the visual inside immediacy. And we are basically instant gratification people. You know I mean that is that is what we are is as far as humanity but in 25

years Giovanna you have to we've really learned that there is a rich history of archaeology in this state. So it was and people didn't even the facts. It's on the people had lived here the fact it was on the Stourbridge because we really have not had the kind of development they've had and so many other parts of America. One thing you learn from you is that there are now three or icky ologist working for the Department of Transportation I mean that's rather a standing in itself so how how do they work what do they do they run into something when they're building a road a lot of this is driven by the you know the environmental movement had very strong historic preservation laws. And then we can talk about that in terms of you know post offices and other kinds of initiatives we've done. But the regulatory statutory things driver monarchy ology to some extent. So the reason why there's three archeologists in the agency of Transportation is that there's some very powerful federal laws that say when you're using federal monies and most of our transportation work is federal money from federal highways. So they've done some

really fantastic work and I have credited them credited the agency of transportation as having really sponsored the great archaeological discoveries. We would never have had a Vermont in the state we never would have discovered a thousand year old or earliest early archaic sites as we call him a thousand year old one in Swat and we never would have found this four thousand year old huge village down in Bennington. And I can just you know. And of course right you go found thousands but I'm sure that there are tens of thousands more. And they're really important. And there are state and federal laws as you said that require us to assess whether they're one historic resources one state federal money is being used and two what's the effect on those resources. So we get involved in those reviews at the division for store preservation also under ACT 250. We get involved in reviewing the effect of development on historic resources including archaeological research and going back to your question of how things have changed.

I think that regulatory archaeology is limited. It's people do it because they have to. They don't do it necessarily because they want to. And so one of the things that we're working hard on is really always promoting education and outreach as part of any regulatory archaeology work. But other things that we're involved in is conserving sites voluntarily with the Vermont housing and Conservation Board which is one of our great partners and also many. Right now the Evers that's so unique I mean here's another Vermont creation that isn't anywhere else is a president that looks at affordable housing and land converts conservation. Why is Vermont so unique in the way it really honors the land and places I mean is it. Was it back to the feeling Governor Dean was it Madeleine Kunin is it or. I mean Governor Dean Davis of course you think 250 or does it come from us where does it come from this really is a way. Yeah I think we have a sense of place and I think a respect for our history and we've always been

somewhat independent and isolated too I think. You really notice that as you travel around New and New England when you start getting into Vermont we really have been protected from a lot of the development that's happened in other parts of the country and I think Vermonters realize we have a lot to lose and we really need to figure out ways to protect and preserve what we have. And Vermont housing and Conservation Board is a perfect example it was formed by a group of people and environmentalists. People are interested in land conservation and affordable housing and historic preservation store preservation which is sort of the third. Leg of what they do. So you're right. We are unique I think we have taken a different approach both by putting historic preservation in the agency of Commerce and community development and having organizations like the Vermont housing and Conservation Board that are trying to protect what we value in the state include and a lot of the affordable housing in Vermont has occurred in historic buildings and uses the federal tax credit that we also administer in our office to rehabilitate created

an incentive to rehabilitate historic buildings but the priority has been on using what we have. I mean it's sort of the old Vermont three by reusing what we have respect in the past in the energy that went into creating these buildings in the first place and recycling them and using them again. I also think we have maybe because of our size it's not just personality it's scale it's you know it's like walking down Park Avenue New York and running into four Vermonters or something about where we are a big community with and then we have our own little communities. But our ability the fact that we all know each other and can build on each other I think has been a big reason why the Vermont housing Conservation Board has been able to work where we can actually sit down and say we have historic building concerns we have archaeology concerns you know we have national natural partners natural marriages of resources. The fact that we could pick up the phone and we all know each other I think has been an enormous asset. Towards resource protection towards towards moving forward I see so much of our work.

Other states are astonished at what we have been able to accomplish here. I take it and Joe's point is a good one we know each other you can call your representatives your legislators and I and work together to get things done. Speaking of some of these re re using the downtown program is one that you're very proud of and you're working to expand in the legislature as we as we speak. Tell us a little bit about that program. The Vermont downtown program began several years ago and it started out as being a network for people in downtowns to work together to learn from each other. The division first preservation actually provides tools to downtown communities to help them figure out what they want to do to revitalize their community and how to do it. We don't do the work. We just assist them. The law was passed in 1908 that created incentives in a way for downtowns to get so-called designated. And they had to meet certain criteria to get designated once designated they're eligible for

tax credits grants etc. in Montpelier I think we have a picture of Montpelier is living on failure is one of our and that currently 13 designated downtowns. And there's a board that gives away the benefits that accrue to them. But I think once again in Vermont we followed the National Trust mainstreet model and the basic premise of that is people in the community have to do the work. They know what their needs are. They know what their resources are. And one of the the bed bed rock of the downtown program is that it's really the local community that decides what they want to do and how to do it. We will assist and I will give them tools to do it. But it's up to them to do it. It's been tremendously successful. We have some terrific staff people that you might almost think about bringing on the show sometime. Chainline way is just Bessie Smith she's been on the staff for 25 years so she was you know a long time pals also seen a lot of changes over time and lost

Bessie and several other folks. The do the tax credit that's part of the downtown group and they've been really at it for a while and I don't really have good connections to communities and real great resources. You know so much. Another kind of less obvious but really coming to life now. Back to you Jim. That is the Lake Champlain and underwater work that has been done then I guess there's a partner there the Maritime Museum. Well we are very much somewhere in the shadows now and are calling in the Lake Champlain Maritime Museum are just internationally at the forefront of maritime archaeology and and heritage education relating to Lake stuff was there was a push because of the zebra mussel we started right in the now it would be. We started as kids and basically we were able to funnels federal monies for underwater surveys to something called the Lake Champlain maritime society which was a five foot one C3 we had created art and I and a few other folks. And then after that

they started a maritime museum and on it went. And in 1985 art and I designed the underwater preserve program on North Avenue on a napkin in a cafe. And you know it was you know he was a very powerful leader in the dive community and said if we don't take control of the divers and how they access the wrecks they will do it for us. So we said OK let us develop these underwater preserve program and we talked to the attorney general in two. Well it's not really a liability issue because if we tell them it's dangerous they're going to do it anyway but let us help it let us help our community have it as a safe recreational resource. So it is recreational as well it's it's historic It helps you in your research and what you do but it's also well it's it controls how people access the site so that if you're visiting one of the preserve

sites and by the way they're all operated on our behalf by the Maritime Museum. They are a partner in this. They actually manage them for us. You know they manage it they write our management plans for the preserved sites. So in addition to their own surveys that are funded through their private foundations and some state funds and certainly lots of federal funds we have a very direct link on the underwater preserve sites where they are. Manage the program for us. There five of them that are open to the public on the Vermont side of the lake and two in the New York side of the lake and there are literally dozens more that could be opened eventually to the to the public for the interesting thing about these sites is that they are all state owned wrecks so that we don't have to deal with landowner issues. They are just the phenomenal resources that are really a time capsule of history. One resource I might add that I will never see. Well I can certify OK if you will on it. Well I got certified in April of 1979 and the water was about

43 degrees maybe pushing it and it was black water with ice cubes kind of floating out it out there in the lake and wanted me to take my regulator out so I can practice my way. OK be on it. Sure this is a really very active dive community in Vermont and this is really an international destination I mean the resources we have the Revolutionary War wrecks are or I don't know that there are wrecks as much as artifacts that are remain there and the things that have sunk to the bottom of the lake. Yeah it's in from the commercial history of Lake Champlain are still down and they're intact they're real time cow disease where muscles are a threat and that's why we are doing this underwater survey. It's I think it's over a period of six years that the Maritime Museum has been mapping the entire bottom of the lake and the General Butler which was our first preserve site off of the Burlington breakwater is entirely covered in zebra mussels. She's pretty much a beginner dive.

She's in 45 feet of water and we only discovered this amazing boat in one thousand seventy nine people been swimming by all those years something you know barns are also at risk back on land. Why is the prison preservation a barn So an important and even a sensitive issue this is not state owned land often mainly never stayed on land. Really there are all private assets. Yeah. How are they how are they targeted how how are we how are we dealing with preserving Bonnes. We have a barn Grant Program at the division firster preservation. Small grants that we give to owners of barns to help them mostly just do stabilisation Would this is not full of full blown rehabilitation next necessarily but we found there is a very strong need in the agricultural community these people farmers own old barns and it's a struggle to maintain them. And they're so important to the Vermont landscape. I mean and they are a very very threatened resource and disappearing rapidly.

But they're so ubiquitous on the Vermont landscape and once they start to go which they are we think they're probably about 10000 barns that are threatened and beyond repair at this point in time and we haven't done a survey or inventory of them but we're planning on doing that. We're working with the Preservation Trust of Vermont which is a statewide nonprofit organization. Run by Paul Broun who's been there for over 20 years a long time to develop sort of a state barn program and we want to survey all the barns in the state and get the resources to the barn owners too to preserve them. They really contribute to the sense of place of a farmstead if you just have a house without its barn. You don't have a sense that it was an agricultural place. And then of course a lot of the outbuildings are already gone. The original 19th century outbuildings in many cases so that that Byron is the anchor to the history of the place to places the sense of player at risk. Yeah and it's a national issue because Senator Jeffords has introduced legislation in a barn bill that would actually get funding nationally to protect these

disappearing resources. I want to say one last thing about the shipwrecks is that my understanding although I've never done a dive in divin dove again is that. When the water is clear like in August sometimes when there is no runoff coming in from the rivers you can see 60 70 feet of it. You can you have complete clarity so you can see the wrecks from stem to stern just like a pier. You know a mirage in front of you and that is extraordinary and that does not happen anywhere else in the country for boats this old. So we have you know 1840 1860 intact shipwrecks that you can see stem to stern and you cannot see those anywhere else in the world. Another at risk peace our post offices which. This didn't occur to me but the Postal Service wants bigger or better post offices. How is that a challenge to your office. Last years we got involved for a couple of reasons first of all the governor's

office. Our agency Senator Leahy Jeffords and Sanders office were getting flooded with phone calls from people saying Help us the post office wants to upgrade our post office and there were really nervous about this and were afraid that they're listening to us and that post offices is such a critical component in any community because it really is a community gathering place and it's a social you know people that I could take you know it's just whatever. Anyway the post office was had really come up with this sort of standard design which I call a suburban design. That one story with parking on three sides and a big loading dock. And we were concerned that they were trying to put this post office in our Vermont communities. Often it had to go outside of town because it would not fit in the downtown or in the village center so we began working with the post office three years ago were involved because under this regulatory federal undertakings that we were talking about earlier we have to review them.

But we were also involved because it seemed to be such a important issue that of course we had the smallest issue. So we began working with the U.S. Postal Service in trying to understand what their needs were and to help them work with communities and to try to get better projects. And it went we actually went right to the postmaster general of the congressional delegation for my congressional delegation and I actually met with the postmaster general last year and said This is a very very important issue to the state of Vermont and communities felt they were getting lip service the post office seemed to be paying attention to them but not really. Developing projects that the community was happy with they were either moving out of town or they were often demolishing several buildings to put their sort of suburban model in there in the middle of the village center of the downtown sort of ignoring the local police working out of town to really hold together were sort of yes. And if you're the Preservation Trust of Vermont and the Vermont League of Cities and towns in the division

for Stark preservation we published a booklet to help communities work with Post Office officials in their communities. What's happened though is there's the post office is in serious financial trouble and they have declared a moratorium on all new construction or rehabilitation projects. And since September 11th they have even other issues that they're dealing with so that the it's quieted down because they're not doing anything right now. But we're preparing for when they get geared up again get up again and start to read you know what I'm driving to and Vermont again. A very interesting archaeological site is this copper mined in Orange County. But it's a Superfund site that has some toxic problems why would we ever want to say something that's toxic. Well there's different kinds of toxicities and certainly that is not my field of expertise but apparently the Elizabeth mine is not a health hazard. It is it has degraded the water quality of the river. So it's an environmental

hazard where there are very major water quality issues. And but there are not hazards to human health the way some other Superfund sites might be. So from the beginning working with the Environmental Protection Agency who's the funding resource here for the cleanup and the state agency of natural resources the department environmental conservation you know we said from the get go that this is a site of probably national significance. They started making coppers in 18 20s and one of the United States presidents came up from Washington 18 23 and to get from Washington to Strafford Vermont 18 23 was probably alledge a hike. Take the bus or fly in. But it was that important as a copper's producing the biggest coppers producing mine in America in that period of time and coppers is something that none of us learn about in school. It is a chemical needed other than for everything else go ahead

push push us along because we only have a minute left. Just quickly both of you know Vermonters you're brought up in shit and co.. You're obviously passionate about this was it part of your upbringing. That made you passionate about your work. For me yes because I watched what was happening. I grew up in Chittenden County and I watched the changes and in county and I kept thinking even as a teenager there must be a better way to do this. The strip as we called it strip development and I just spent. My 20s at Shelburne farms and we were struggling with the landscape and the buildings there and I got introduced to Chester leeves who ran the Vermont historic graduate the historic preservation program at University of Vermont. And I suddenly realized hey there's there's a master's degree in this thing that I'd like to do. I'm sorry we're out of time I know you're looking to get a center museum. The department has tons of wonderful resources. Check them out

thank you both for coming and it's been great having you I'm sorry it's so short. Thanks for having us. Well let's look around and appreciate our historical heritage and thank you for being with us on profile. She's a modern leader and as adjutant general of the Vermont National Guard she's broken many

records in her military career and as a woman. Join me in the discussion about leadership our troops abroad and life on the home front with Major General Martha Rainville. Next on profile. When the mom had just. Thank you for. Them. Lieutenant Colonel Rangel's appointment in 1997 she became the first woman to serve as a state adjutant general in the three hundred sixty five year history of the National Guard. She was also the youngest. In her job she oversees 4000 members of the Vermont Army and National Air National Guard and an 87 million dollar budget. The daughter of a career Navy man Major General Rainville was born in Connecticut and raised in Florida Mississippi during her distinguished career she has been decorated and awarded numerous times by both the military and civilian groups including an honorary doctorate from St. Michael's

College and a women of achievement award from the International Women's Forum for speaking engagements or taken her from the Defense Department to the Today show. Rainville lives with her husband and three children say in Albany where she has been active on the local planning commission and hospital board. She's also served on Vermont's environmental commission and as an organist and church choir member. Thank you for finding time for us in your busy schedule. Oh it's my pleasure thanks for having me. That's great. Now 13 Air Guardsmen left recently to somewhere near or in Afghanistan. Do we know any more anything more about their mission and what they're doing yeah. We know that they are safely where they need to be. I can tell you that they are in the Central Command theater of operations. They're very busy but they're doing well. We're in contact with them through military channels and they have a very strong NCO leadership cadre with them. So we are looking forward to them doing their mission and doing it well and Green Mountain Boys fashion.

All right. And coming home safely Now we also see soldiers at the airport. We hear the Green Mountain Boys in the in the air. These are all Vermont National Guard members and what other ways is the guard serving. Well the guards are very busy now and many people have been supporting us in an outstanding way from communities to employers to families. But we do have Guard members in several different roles which I think really describes the versatility of the National Guard the Air Guard was activated very quickly after September 11th and they are actually under commanding control of the United States Air Force flying active missions in the homeland security role. And these people have done air defense for years. They are very experienced and I'm happy for one that they are the ones up there doing that job in the airports U.S. Army National Guard soldiers Vermont soldiers providing security as requested by President Bush to the governors. And again they have enjoyed their mission. It's a very serious

one and they take it seriously. But they've got to know some community members and they've gotten some encouragement from the community and they feel very good about what they're doing. So about how many out of that 4000 are are on active duty now. We have five hundred and sixty roughly on active duty at the Air Guard and that's out of about 900 75 your guard members. And on the Army side we have roughly 80 serving in federal service not on Title 10 active duty but in federal service supporting Operation Noble Eagle. Now what was September 11th like for you here not only in New York but the Pentagon as it is attacked. You know you have to mobilize how clear were orders coming from Washington and how prepared were way to to to do what we needed to do when the attacks first began. Somebody came to my office and said turn on CNN which I did and that was before the second tower had been hit. So the leadership of the staff came into my office and we were

watching. And as soon as we saw that second airplane hit we realized this was a coordinated terrorist attack. We started immediately thinking what do we need to do and our first priority was to safeguard the federal the troops in the federal equipment so that we could respond as we needed to at the Air Guard when they were watching and saw that second airplane hit they mediately started to think were going to be needed in a different role. Now so before NORAD's even called them they were already reconfiguring the aircraft for the air defense mission. Breaking out air missiles that had been in storage on the live munitions that they would need in preparing. So when they were called Can you be ready the answer pretty much was we already are. And that was happening at Guard units around around the country I'm very proud of them for that presence of mind that they displayed and and being aggressive and preparing. One of the things that you seem particularly sensitive to is the needs of families when their loved ones are on active duty. Was that something that was addressed when you were growing up on Navy

bases. Not so much on Navy bases although there was a bus to the swimming pool on Saturdays for the kids in Navy housing. I think the services over the years have realized that in a volunteer force which we've had since Vietnam. Other Priorities have to be taken into account. And I think it makes us better leaders and a stronger force. A soldier an airman needs to be focusing on the mission. They don't need to be worrying about what's going on at home. So we make sure they know when they're deployed or when they're activated that their families will be taken care of that they can count on us and on the system. And we have a strong family support volunteer system where the families help each other and take care of each other and that's been very important to us in September 11th. What about businesses that that lose a key employee. We work with businesses. We have an employer support of the Guard Reserve committee that is chaired by a businessman and we also have some workers volunteers in the business community to sit and

work with an employer who's having a problem or an issue and we try to be sensitive. If it's a small employer if there is a guardsman who's critical to that small business we'll do our best to work with the employer and see if there's someone else that could go in that soldier Ehrman's place. Terrific. Since September 11th the Vermont 23 armories and Vermont have been closed or had limited access. And there were a variety of community programs and groups that were very kind of upset about this. Where does that stand now and what can we expect around the the the armories and are more use. We are very focused on that. I have pushed since I've become adjutant open the armories more across the state. I think our rays are safe drug free places for kids particularly after school. We want kids in the armories whether it's a preschool in the burger armory or a kindergarten in the Swanton armory Junior ROTC in Newport or the new North End youth group. When we were able to support them for seven years

it's a real commitment that we feel we need to make. As the guard as the militia the community based force. September 11th hit. And with the concerns in the security and not knowing what was going to happen next we were directed to a high level of threat condition with certain security protocols and we notified all the groups and really there was a lot of support from them and a lot of understanding around the state for these groups that had used the armories. So we're working through that now we're at Threat Con Bravo. It's still an increased threat condition but not quite as severe as we had been in. But there are still some security measures that we are required to take. I have the flexibility to increase the threat condition and increase the security protocols but I don't have the discretion to decrease it. The Department of the Army has told all armies across the United States to be a threat con Bravo. But within that my counterparts and I all the adjutant's are trying to work to get groups back in. We've been able to hold a blood drive. We've been

able to work around operation happiness which is a a huge Christmas time help to needy family operation in Franklin in Grand Isle counties. And now we're trying to look at how we can get some of those youth groups back in the armories perhaps not extended hours perhaps not to the degree they were but to work with them in the communities around our security parameters to get them back again. So it is very important issue for us and for me personally with the youth groups trickier I'm sure it is your area. Specialty before your major management roles was in aircraft maintenance. Yes. What got you interested in that. Well actually in 1979 when I came into the air force they were pushing to put women into nontraditional fields. And so there was a there was a system and they would have you when you volunteered to go into the Air Force put down your areas of choices and then you would put down the needs of the Air Force. Well fortunately for me although

I hadn't put aircraft maintenance down I was put in that field and I was an aircraft maintenance manager. So I went to technical training and learned about electrical systems a new draw Lexan and all of that. But mostly my role was to manage all of the people that work on airplanes and get them ready for the pilot to come out and fly them. So it was fascinating and I loved it and it was very action oriented being out on the flight line working with the airplanes and with the people that are so dedicated. So when I do it's month I wasn't present. Later the Air Force I was not a grease monkey although I did learn how to change a tire and lube the brakes for an F1 0 1 which they don't have anymore. But I really enjoyed it. Well one of the first gender barriers that you broke was when you became an aircraft maintenance officer. How did that play out for those for you and for those under your command. I had the experience of being the first woman maintenance officer at every base I had was assigned to. They had just never worked with women before and I

found that some of my my dad's philosophy worked well and his was basically buckle down and do the work and don't make excuses for yourself. Pull your weight because you have a lot of people depending on you. So I took that to heart and I think it took about six months I think into every assignment before people really got to know me and to understand that I was serious about what I was doing and I cared about them enough about what they needed. And after that I would not really have any problems and and to be honest I think you have to give people time to adjust to a new situation and you can expect to go into a new situation and just be accepted. You have to earn respect and you have to earn that acceptance. So I didn't expect it to be different. You were speaking it was your dad plays that you went into the military. He was pleased although he didn't actively encourage me until I made the decision. But then he counseled me on which service to choose.

Interesting. In 1994 you implemented quality management techniques which are credited among other things it seems in contributing to the Vermont weapons loading team receiving the first ever perfect score in the Williams health Compazine competition and your maintenance team also finished first. First what is the William Tell competition from the William Tell is an international weapons meet and they would bring in fighter aircraft to do for air defense from Europe from the Pacific European Command Pacific Command and the Canadians which made it International and they would go through all the skills that were required of those pilots from sitting alert and scrambling within a short time frame to firing weapons at drones and being able to score hits on them so it's on and maintenance was also very very tightly judged on your practice. So what was it about your leadership style that took these groups to the top. Well I think that the Air Guard at that time had had some training in quality management and a lot of it is common sense things we already know but this was a system for us to

actually use that common sense and common sense says that the people that know best how to do their job are the people doing the job. And if you give them the tools they need any encouragement support and get out of their way and motivate them they will do a far better job than if you tried to tell them how to do it is that still your style. That is that's still my style and the power of this this way of dealing with people I think came out and William Tell the mechanics the weapons loaders came up with. They were much tougher on themselves I think than anybody else would have been in preparing for this weapons meet and they went with ways of interpreting the regulations far stricter than the other teams and they came out on top. They also used vision. They were envisioning. They would sit in practice in the corner of a hangar just by sitting and closing their eyes and going through their drills and their routines and they really really got into it to a much greater level than the leadership I think would have directed this a different way of doing things. What do women bring to the military.

I think women and I don't like to generalize too much but I think we all have different perspectives and we talk about diversity. What we are really talking about is the strength that we get from different perspectives coming from different backgrounds different cultural perspectives all brought to the table. And I think women are necessary to that balance as as necessary as any of our groups that are represented in our population. And I I think that we've come a long way since I've been in the military but we still have a ways to go. Why aren't there more leadership roles. Part of that I think is the time when there are women coming into the senior leadership positions now but we've lose an awful lot of women at the mid career level when they start families when a lot of demands get on them. And I don't we've we've taken a look at we've tried to see do we have the support systems for families in place to allow women and men to serve as they need to. How can we change our approach to the workplace. Maintaining the integrity of the military

mission the absolute requirements that we have when soldiers and airmen. But within that finding ways to accommodate. Well speaking of that you have a very demanding high profile job your husband is a commercial airline pilot which means he has very untraditional schedules. And somehow you have raised three children and managed to be active in your community how do you do it. I've also had a great family support system. We have family that have been marvelous with the kids were growing up and I also have terrific children. I'll put in a plug for them and it takes work. It takes work by everybody in the family. I was fortunate that I could go from full time active duty to serving part time in the guard when my kids were youngest and being at home with them when I needed to be. But staying current in my career field and then when they were older and I could manage it. Being able to go back full time. Great. In a recent speech you said because of their vision and willingness to choose the road less traveled the Vermont Guard is breaking records and leading the way in new

mission areas. Vermont seems to be cutting edge in a lot of ways and expected here in the military. What new mission areas are the guard pursuing that are that are different and kind of cutting edge. We are actively actually developing a mission for us in the field of information operations information assurance information warfare. This is a field that we got into about three years ago before other guard units were looking at it and it was a hunch it was a feeling it was a recognition of the nest Sessa t to look to the future for future missions knowing that the state needs a strong guard. And as we sunset and other missions as equipment becomes obsolete we need to the flexibility to have those units go into new mission areas for the future and that's absolutely information operations. One major area of growth what we've seen since Desert Storm is that every commander no matter what kind of unit they have has a need for this kind of training and

this kind of capability. So we are now the schoolhouse for the National Guard and we are developing web based courses. We are training not only Guard members but active duty. And we've just been asked by the Air Force to help them develop web based training courses for their their brand of information operations. So information operations this is how to deal with the future and more things. It is an umbrella term really. It can. It can mean information assurance where you assure the security of your information networks. To be able to detect whether your network has been hacked into and how to how to correct it to being able to show commanders how to use information to their benefit in a war zone and how to respond to the adversaries use of information. We saw that in Desert Storm with Saddam Hussein very good at using the media to influence the opinions of the American people. Another interesting link that you spoke about about a year ago was a

link between the Alaskan Scouts which is a group of Eskimos I guess originally and the Vermont mountain infantry battalion. Is that link still happening is that still being discussed and what's that all about. That is still going through the approval process and it is quite a and involved process so that the equipment flows along with the change in unit structure and that's well on track. The scouts have a fascinating history and in World War 2 there was a need of course to know what was going on on those islands off Alaska and on the coast so close to Russia and the Eskimos the villagers had the skills already and they became the Alaskan scouts not today's Alaskan Scouts are still heavily recruited from the villages the outlying villages but they're having to adapt to the Army's structure more now than ever and we have gone in a collaborative effort with them with our mountain infantry which is the only mountain infantry in the United States Army to be able to share our

skills share training and bolster each other's units so that Vermont's mountain infantry battalion is still based here but will do some training in Alaska and vice versa. And we'll be able to share in the missions the scouts might have particularly when you're looking at homeland security missions with the oil pipeline with the critical infrastructure so much transportation is all networked out of Alaska to go over the polar icecap and to go over and over Russia. Fascinating. The United States spends more on its military than and so much of the next 10 countries military budgets combined. And yet there's call for more increases. How do you feel. Do you feel that the military has been adequately funded. Are its priorities in the right place I know this is a huge question but you kind of where do you stand on on military spending and budgets and what's really needed or or or. Or as as Ben Cohen our fermenter says it should go more into education so we have an educated military where where

do you stand there. I think that. Our best defense is a strong military and we need to have our potential adversaries whether there are terrorist networks or there are third world countries or with with some kind of nuclear capability or whomever. I know that the United States is strong and we're committed to defending our ideals and our homeland. Within that people need to realize that over the past 10 to 12 years we have taken money that probably needed to be in research and development that needed to be developing new technologies to deal with information operations to deal with the use of spatially the commercialization of space. And we've just use that money to try and pay the bills. So we have worked ourselves into a position where we're going to run out of fighters before more can be replaced unless significant funding is put into weapons acquisition. This is hard to do when you know there's a balance that needs to happen with social

programs. But we've almost backed ourselves into the corner of needing to just make the investment in defense to catch up. The other piece of that is in investing in defense. You are providing health care for thousands of Americans you're providing educational opportunity for you know hundreds of thousands of Americans. So you're also in a sense supporting some of the social needs companies are going I realize it covers more than just the go to war stuff that people think of when they hear military budget. Another very interesting program that you were focused on before September 11th was a partnership for peace which is interesting. A program that took you and members of the guard to Macedonia and to help train the military there. What about these kind of almost diplomatic missions is that a positive trend in the military and how did that program work. I think that's a tremendous program because it focuses on conflict prevention and the strengthening of democracy by the people themselves not us telling

them what to do but sharing what we've learned and giving them options and support in the case of the guard's partnership sometimes just moral support for what they're doing. They range from how to work on dump trucks to me going in presenting a seminar on how to incorporate women into the armed forces so that women have those opportunities also. What was their reaction to that. Actually it was at the request it came out of a meeting between myself and their chief of the general staff and minister of defense and they asked me he said Can we ask you a personal question I said Certainly sir and it goes. How do you do it. How do you have women in your armed forces and out of that conversation came the follow on workshops and seminars with their general officers. But it's a program that that this is my opinion is well worth what ever dollars we put into it because you can spend a small amount and help this country stabilize or we can go back in the future when there's a conflict and risk not only a lot of expensive weaponry but lives. So I

think that this administration is really reviewing all those programs are they put them on the table should we still support them or not and I'm just keeping my fingers crossed that they will decide to keep these Partnership for Peace program because I think they're so important right. What can we as individual civilian citizens do to combat terrorism. I mean is there what can the civilian population do during these times. I think we should sign up for my sake. Yes I'd like to encourage people to do that. The most basic thing I think a citizen can do is is be informed. Read from a variety of sources what's going on and be able to to discuss it intelligently and form their own opinions I've talked to several high schools and I tried to tell the high school students there too. Don't accept what your friends say. Get out and make your own opinions based on facts gleaned from a variety of sources so if we're informed citizens and were involved in our communities we know who our neighbors are.

We know what's going on to defend through what the Guard is doing or what the military is doing what is Homeland Security. And we keep up with this this is only going to grow. Then I think we in a sense protect our communities. People who come in and stay to themselves and might be planning something as as we saw with with some of the al Qaeda members did that because they were in places where they didn't have to have contact with others. So the first offense I think is a good office and that's to to know your community be a part of it and be informed. It must be very different for the Air Guard now to be having those missiles on I'll never forget when I looked up in those F 16s looked different. How are people feeling about handling the weapons. I think they feel such a sense of responsibility when they know that they are taking off with with those live weapons and it's a reminder when they look out on the wing tip of what they might be asked to do and the reason they're sitting in that cockpit now days are people with a

lot of experience and they they've known what their mission might be. And since they became a pilot. But the reality of taking off from Burlington Vermont and flying over the East Coast on patrol is one that has really struck home and caused us all to to readjust our thinking in a way that we never thought we would need to before. Just quickly you have ambition drive smarts a passion for a better world what's next for you. I think that's next for me is getting out there my state budget and continuing on with the goals of the strategic plan of the guard. I am in so devoted to the guard and to what they're doing I want to be able to serve. And I think whatever I do with the rest of my life will be focused on serving serving the men and women of the guard serving Vermont serving my country. General Major General Martha Rainville thank you so much for coming in today. My pleasure. Thank you. And thank you for being with us on profile hopefully are a little more informed. Thank you. Thing.

No one knows better what it means to be a Yankee than Judson Hale senior editor in chief of both Yankee Magazine and The Old Farmer's Almanac publications he has worked on for nearly forty five years. Stay tuned for a bit of Yankee wisdom next on profile. Born in Boston and raised in Maine Judson Hale began working for his uncle's company

Yankee publishing as assistant editor. After graduating from Dartmouth in 1958 he moved through the ranks in various editorial roles and is now editor in chief of both the popular Yankee Magazine and North America's oldest continuously published periodical. The Old Farmer's Almanac which in its two hundred and tenth year boasts more than 18 million readers. Mr. Hale has received three honorary doctorate degrees authored two books and edited three others. Mr. Hale has been a guest on hundreds of radio and television shows across the country and we are pleased to have him on ours. Well I'm delighted will be your friend. It's great that you came over from New Hampshire. Oh such a beautiful ride. Great. Now the Old Farmer's Almanac has been published in four decades began 1792 quite amazing when George Washington was. He was in his second term. And it began in the fall of 1790 to incredible about 3000 circulation at that time.

Well one thing that's amazing to me is kind of the mishmash of stuff I mean even in this year's edition you have things on weddings and magicians fly fishing Solar Power family farmers recipes consumer trends. How do you figure out the balance between tradition and fashionable trends to keep this well you put your finger on the challenge. That's what we have to do. It is the oldest continuously published periodical in North America but and we wanted to sort of feel that way look that way and have people be familiar with it. However it has to be brand new every single year and everything in it has to be brand it went up today. And so walking that line is what our challenge is all about. Now were Robert Thomas's original additions similar in the fact that they just had so many different types you know I read every single Edition and On the occasion of our two 100th anniversary this was 10 years ago and I had never really read the first five or six editions 1792 through eighteen hundred

carefully before but they are just about the same as they are today. Obviously only 48 pages and hard to read only five six point type. But they have the same general subject matters. I mean there was weather forecast there was the astronomy there was recipes there was gardening information and there was Corky quacky stuff there was advertisements. It's just less of it. Right. And so the general subject categories have carried through for all these many years incredible and even say among many others Abraham Lincoln used the almanac. Well the Almanac has been very lucky. I think people say well why has it lasted so long. And I really can't answer exactly why. But I think it's been fortunate like we all are that survive and one of the fortunate things was in 1837 a man was accused of hitting somebody with a slung shot in the middle of the night. The name was Armstrong and became the famous Armstrong murder case. The trial was the next

year and Abraham Lincoln was a friend of the Armstrong family and he volunteered to be the defense attorney. So during the trial a witness got up and the prosecutor said Did you see Armstrong hit him with this long shot. And he said yes how did you see it it was 11:30 at night he said I saw by the light of the Moon enter Abraham Lincoln with the Old Farmer's Almanac. He opened it August 20 and I think showed the jury there was no moon that night. So I mean and the jury agreed and the man was acquitted. And Abraham Lincoln as we know went on to more important things which was all of that with yeah sure there is a wonderful painting in the Bennington Vermont museum there of. Abraham Lincoln reading the 1837 Almanac at the Rockwell. Yeah Norman Rockwell painting right. So those kinds of lucky things have happened to the army that all the way through. You probably heard

you know that we predicted snow for July and August of 1816 and at the time there were many so-called Farmer's Almanac This is called The Old Farmer's Almanac but that was later at that time it was just another farmer's almanac and it was a mistake. I mean I think that what happened was the July and August weather forecasts were transposed with the January and February forecasts. But but I came through three records that nothing to do with the almanac but that was the cold summer of 1816 in weather journals and so forth it's a very famous summer they did snow in New England and certainly kept it going which it seems that you're Uncle Rob Segador five really save the all back from possible demise in the 1930s when things weren't looking so great and it's one of the things he did was return the great tradition of weather prediction which some reason had been had had been dumped. You dumped it for one year that Roger Scaife who worked for Little Brown and Company

in Boston left off the well what he did was put weather averages in the 1938 edition and their circulation plummeted I mean an average is so meaningless if you put one foot on it in a pail of boiling water put your other foot on a cake of ice and you're supposed to feel just right it's going to be average. So I mean it's meaningless and people felt that way. Well by putting the predictions back again your uncle got into a bit of hot water. Yeah. During the war which again was a lucky break because it brought the almanac back to the attention of Americans in general. A German agent landed from a U boat. It was 1943 on Long Island and was apprehended by the FBI going into Penn Station how they knew it was a German h I'm not sure but in his pocket was a 44 edition of The Old Farmer's Almanac so our government felt you know that maybe the Germans were using the old Farmer's Almanac to see what the weather would be like over here which my uncle who had a very good sense of humor but very dry you know always win that by

saying well maybe they were after all these you don't want to lose the war. But. Did he have to change the oh yeah change it to. So if you see in an antique shop or anything. Forty five six. I think even 47 ideations says weather indications. So that got around the government saying nobody can predict weather during a war. These are like secrets. Yeah but it will really help because the newspapers made fun of it and it was a very dark time obviously in our history. So people were able to smile. Now whether predictions of the Almanac are possibly not taken as seriously as they once were because of all the up to the minute forecasts that we have. But still even predicting 18 months in advance you have 80 percent accuracy. This is really pretty remarkable. And even when I look in here for January and February this is pretty close because of the odd rain and stuff how do you do it.

People say How in the world can you predict the you know the weather a few months in advance it's easy getting it right. That's the tough part but that's OK. It's good. OK so how do you get it right. Well you know first of all the 80 percent is a tradition and the old farmer to save it were 80 percent accurate is something every editor has said since 1790. Why has it never been 81 percent never been something that we can sort of justify it if you think of for instance five months of winter November through March usually we might miss one month so that gives you four out of five that's 80 percent. We do actually keep more specific accuracy records and last year we were something like seventy two point eight on precipitation and something less than that about 68 percent across the country on temperature. And we we judge ourselves on the precipitation forecast monthly not daily and temperature forecasts monthly for the 16 regions across the United States and the five in Canada.

Well how do you do it is there a formula that's kept in this to me. How do you how do you do it. Let's even back in 1792 when he was predicting them when their first 1793 in the very first weather forecast was from January 1st. 1792 I mean something 93 January 19th for the whole country. And it's a cold frosty and somewhat wintry country. So I mean it was pretty general. Save it my uncle really became serious about the weather for us. But even back then we use the side because most people feel sometimes and you know and I go along with it when the television people want me to go out into a park sometimes in the fall when we're talking about the almanac when it just came out and see what the squirrels are doing right. How many nuts there gathering all this kind of thing. I believe that probably Nature does know what's coming up in and you know if she puts long hair on her horses when it could be 90 degrees sends her bird south out of Vermont

when it gets it could be very hot out. And yet she knows what's coming along. But we go to press the end of June first week in July and they did even back in 1792. What we how we use it. Principal use the sun. We use solar science. Add to that modern meteorology and climatology which is history. So in other words what happens actually I told you I would tell you the secret to night. Yeah you did. Well here's the secret. We need a way to go you know. Dr. Richard Head who was the chief science was the chief scientist for NASA's during the 1960s he joined us in 68 and he's worked for us full time ever since. He predicts what the sun will be doing over the next 18 months. Well since that information and it's very detailed information I mean he works eight hours a day. Michael Steinberg who's a meteorologist in State College Pennsylvania who takes that looks back when the sun was doing that very same thing was the orientation of the earth in the sun the same

that year if it wasn't find another year where it was and it did do what Dr. Head is predicting the sun will do. Then he adds in a number of other things. But generally speaking look at what was the weather on that particular year. So there's where the climatology comes in the history for science and history. Wow. Fascinate what I do believe in the wooly worm. Yeah. Why is my turkey in Thanksgiving turkey leg you know and it was very white. The breastbone we had was to do that and it's dark purple it's going to be a wicked winter. But if it's white it's going to be fairly mild so so for the turkey breast bone has been right. Now you joined your Uncle Robin business right out of college when they were only about five employees I went through Dartmouth and I'm class of 55 I graduated 58 in between there was a little stint with driving around in a tank right for three years a very important stint Yeah. There were five employees that now there are there

are over 60. One of them is your son Judson Jr. yes in my mind. Yes Johnson Jr. is the publisher and my nephew is a wonderful I say boy. My heavens he's over 40 isn't he. RESIDENT Yeah. Is it important to keep this is a family business I'm going to. So does it make to you your DH has a different atmosphere about it you know it's harder in some ways because we're independent we're family owned. And so many magazines it's difficult for yanking in particular not so much the only thing but you know we don't have the leverage for printing and buying paper and and some you know another magazine can sell an advertisement in one magazine and then five others and give them a deal. But if you do those kinds of things. But there's something special about it being a family. I just love looking across the table and seeing what's on there. Yeah and my nephew there. Speaking of family your your upbringing was quite interesting as revealed in your autobiography The Education of a Yankee. Your parents were well-off couple from Boston and they got

very involved in the work of Rudolf Steiner. Yes answer possibly I think if that's the way you think that's right and and they actually began a Waldorf school in Maine where you were brought up. Yes. How did their move out of Boston society and into Maine affect who you are. It had everything. That affected me probably and I wouldn't know where to begin. But they did that because my brother at age 3 began to scream and himself and obviously they didn't know what then but he was severely autistic that autism wasn't even discovered till 1941 and research till the 1960s. Everywhere they took him they said just lock him up. So a year later they eventually in a cattle boat took him to Switzerland where Rudolph Steiner had a center that took care of people that were severely disabled mentally. And he's been there ever since. Wow. But they were introduced there to help Stan or as you mention and they were so taken with it particularly my mother that she felt that my brother Drake

had led them to this. They she believed in destiny and that that was the purpose of his malady of his so-called autism and that her responsibility in this life was to bring him to possibly to America. My father sort of went along because then he went along with the going up the made love to. And that's why they started up there in Maine. Just to establish an anthem for us off of the center and so they did all the biodynamic farming which is similar to organic farming. This school was a theater and my mother became a singer and did concerts all over the country and so forth. It eventually went bust. We lost you know but it was magnificent. They always felt it was a failure. My sister who lives in northern Vermont Patsy. We've always felt it was the most magnificent experiment there and of course we've both benefited because we were raised there right and wonderful way to be.

Oh you raised all my dreams are set in the in the setting of dance for me even though modern people are there and you're working on a book about your USA and autism. Yeah. My sister and I. Patsy and I went over to celebrate his 70th birthday. In 1996 when the book is about that week we spent with him it was the first time the three of us had ever been together because we'd always gone over single E and we just had taken over from my mother the responsibility for him because she had just died. And so the book is about that week wonderful a great story maybe I don't know. Yeah we'll see. Back to the old Mac. Yeah you became editor in chief actually just a few years ago and you named a new editor to the almanac. Yeah this third interview in chief means that I go to the office now but I don't do anything I just you and you do. It's like a good thing. Yes Janice Stillman is the editor of the of the Old Farmer's Almanac the 13th editor and I thought well now Janice if you have a phobia you know you might not want to be the

13th and I was perfectly willing and I think Jamie Trowbridge and my son Jamie would be willing to allow someone else to be the editor for two weeks and then resign and then she could have been the 14 but she's not superstitious and she wasn't having a long and you think that's going to change things or is she just going to me. Yeah that is great. Now you know you and say we have a new editor for Yankee magazine to Michael Carlton and he has a fabulous background work for Southern Living I mean we're trying to bring being more service material more home more gardening more better recipes better travel more up to date more current more what people really want. So he's going to be doing that and I'm thrilled with what he's doing. Well one of the things I can't help but notice what the almanac and add a little bit the other is the advertisers are quite a varied bunch I mean you have everything from psychics to psoriasis cures in here glass eyes did you see that one. Why do you have an advertising OSA or yes we do.

I mean you know there is very acceptable advertising questionable advertising and advertising that's totally objectionable and our policy is to accept all three and it makes it very interesting I'm sure your readers want to root them anyway I miss the rooster because you know they you know stop advertising those but those are terrific and they were in every issue up until 1989. And I thought somebody said I would be harmful. So I said well let's inform. So I got them and they came from Chicago and I remember the morning and I took a few and you know they did make you feel a little I think for about 10 or 15 minutes they were great. You certainly stayed with the times even extensive award winning website updated every single day Amen. Yes and Yankee magazine has has that a Web site for you. And it's growing by leaps and bounds and we have wonderful people that keep it up to date every day. Yeah it's quite it's quite amazing. And you also have a whole publishing empire you have at

Yankee magazine of course it's a little bit big but we're sure of it. In the corner stone Canyon when I most read cover to cover I see I can't call a radio report. How do you decide you know to go to another venture to do the web. Well we have a wonderful publisher for the Old Farmer's Almanac John Pearson and his serene white and the two of them I think have been just a blessing to our organization and they have an instinct for what's going to work and they also have the courage to try things and the brains to make them work. And so I credit a lot of the new things that the Old Farmer's Almanac has been doing in the last 10 to 15 years for those two people. Well some of the enterprises earlier on didn't work for the restaurant in Dublin that you have had so many family here. It's incredible what. The many things we did we just you know we keep trying things and then working everything but now I think we have a different group of people.

They're a little more careful they're a little more smart. They're smarter business wise and we still want to try new things and I think we have a better chance of succeeding. But they know what Thompson of SAG and your tradition to really keep it seems as well. Yes. And Rob starting off as an entrepreneur my uncle who has as you mentioned purchased the All-American in 1939 and started Yankee in 1935 but he was more of a visionary and an entrepreneur. And then he was you know a writer or an editor or even a businessman he was a wonderful man and he died in 1970. Of your 18 million readers of The Allman act the largest audiences in the south almost twice as many as New England who were there when are these people compared to the northeast New England is one of the important influential region in the United States but it's very small. So it's a you know up to lay should I think and I am sure if for instance in Vermont for that matter I think about a million isn't it in Vermont or you know a little less happy That's right well New Hampshire it's about a million right. You know

where is the town of Cincinnati is. Two million or something like you know. So it's more a question of scale that way but yes the South is an important area for the Old Farmers Almanac it has tradition and that the recipes are wonderful and we tend toward Southern recipes sometimes because they're so wonderful and just thing. Yeah. Yankee is also known for its poetry page which I think is interesting among other things. What's what is the mission of Yankee for you. Maybe it's fresh and perhaps indirectly the preservation of our no Wingle and culture. And now that sounds like knowing a culture sounds like you know the old knowing that in old New England goes along with it but I think that is now we feel we are and quite excited about. It's the culture of today in the way in wind and tomorrow's New England and we want to be useful in current. The one thing we want to do with the Yankee that will be different from the past is when people say you know when I get Yankee

I can wait three four months for read it or I can pick up last years. You know we don't want that. We want to be able to pick up Yankee and they want to read it right away because it's current. Right and what has the definition at Yankee changed at all for you know that I want to keep that the definition for you remains nebulous forever. You know when we went over in World War One to friends even people from Alabama were known as Yankees right. And today probably knowing others are the Yankees. But in New England maybe Vermonters and in Vermont of course it's for monitors so we have a pie for breakfast and but what to them what raising a person who eats apple pie for breakfast with a knife. Yeah that's a good thing. On on September 11th you were in New York about to go on The Today Show. I was 10 minutes away from talking with Al Roker about Mike the headless wonder chicken which is a feature in this year's Old Farmer's

Almanac it's about a chicken that lived for three years without his head. When everything changed in the world really. And of course and has it changed for you in published. Well of course like everyone advertising was affected and we didn't go on the tour which I usually do. Promoting the Old Farmer's Almanac but in some ways there's been a movement toward home in tradition in family and in our publications represent those values. And so in some ways we've become more relevant than even before but it's a tremendous it was a tremendous thing and a very emotional day for us. Oh yes I can. I can only imagine. What traditions of yours are in here. Where's where's your Where's your stamp. Probably. A little bit of the humor. I like making

fun of myself and what I do. And I hope that it comes through in the publications over the last 40 years and I hope it can continue in some ways. I mean Mike the headless wonder chicken. That's just putting that in and it's only about two paragraphs is making fun of our publication in a sense you know in writing right. Maybe that's my stamp. Well I think it makes a difference was. And what about your uncle's stamp but what you say his stamp was on he had a great reverence for the history and I think he tried to maintain the look of it the feel of it. He would not increase the type size of the count of pages and it was six point type. When he died God bless him I took it up to me and I have. I mean just how you do it in candlelight. Yeah I would have read this. Really. So he was very devoted to the tradition of it but he also had a

wonderful sense of humor very dry like I already told you about the Germans using writing that you know but that was so typical. What's a favorite piece of folklore you'd like to leave us with today. Oh folklore. Jane. You know how to get rid of the hiccups. Stand on your head and drink water backwards. I might work but I think the most effective is to try to run around the church three times without thinking about a fox. It's almost impossible to do. But if you can do it more it's fabulous. Well thank you for your many bits of wisdom today they've been terrific to learn more about Judd Hale Sr. You can check out our wonderful the education of a Yankee I thought was delightful and a very interesting balance on one book and learn more about our natural world and the way

England you can pick up the almanac Yankee gardeners companion watching the weather I'll keep in my car now. I think you missed out on something severe all these things. It's been terrific to have you on today. Thank you so I'd like delighted to be here. And good luck in the future and I hear your new book. Thank you. It's terrific. Thank you for being with us and thank you for being with us on profile.