1973 Watergate Hearings; 1973-08-01; Part 2 of 7

it's been major building awareness lefty information please that belong to serve the government democratic party for not exactly the way a review we believe that is the impression given the impression was the impression that even now in your statement you're trying to give the same image judy and it's my contention over this morning that you tried to give there in the

course of the campaign specifically was so they're going to be opposition party the opposition candidate or soft on communism so you say in your opening statement and really really more the pranksters and it was investors would've specifically excluded such acts to follow a violent demonstrations and disruption heckling of shutting down speakers berninger bombing campaign headquarters physical damage or crashing of course the national convention indecent exposure of rock throwing assault on delegate slashing tires smashing windows setting trash fires in the gas tank of the policemen from their motorcycle i know this committee and most americans would agree that such activity can't be tolerated in the political campaign for parliament approved will point out a question for these activities the lack of even if you listed are clearly illegal

and not a question of whether we agree on it or not the most is there specific laws that are meant to be enforced against this type of activity which was horses in the hands of various local state federal officials but unfortunately it deserves a place in seventy two thousand non state by his opponents by his opponents of you mean by that were opponents in your statement at that point your statement the democratic party so to that question would be answered shouldn't the rise in anyone's mind at that point in the statement following sentence says meredith reads some of them took place with the clear knowledge and consent of agents of the opposing candidate in the last election question answer your question at that point in your

state where you list all these activities with the way you've written statement praising against the campaign says that by his opponents and then i immediately went on to say and i quote from the next following sentence in my statement some of them took place with the clear knowledge and consent of agents of the opposing candidate in the last election others were acts of people who were clearly i'm sympathetic to the president but may not have had direct orders from the opposing view and the following year when i referred to the fact that there had been no investigation little publicizing it again characterize the two different possibilities by saying either those which were directly attributable your opponent or those which certainly serve our opponents interest but did not have his sanctions really recognizing senator that precise point that you're making here and i do recognize the precise point that i'm making is i watch a clearly tell me exactly which of these actual of an engine co mingling that too

and giving an impression i want you to tell me which of these illegal acts you were educated through the committee yesterday that the documentation of these is available it was my understanding that the committee had and i find that apparently it does not and i will make sure that they get i would emphasize that this is at a such as was there are a number of other items and this is what in general terms such as burning or bombing campaign headquarters the material that movie god that i thought had been furnished sites the specific headquarters the specific dates the specific incident that took place the nature of the extent of the damage that the bomb didn't actually true

so far there's been no investigation of these activities and gretel publicizing of them either of those which were directly attributable to our opponent or those were certainly serve our opponents of interest but that not at this age now isn't it true that the acts which you didn't serve your opponents' winners but they did on occasion serve your candidate's interest as you do and white house version ran for literature home from welding to walker and they'll have

a cot denies that this copy to you he's at the same time at the same time i would like to submit yours but in your inspection in nineteen seventy three ms bee i know the first moment of truth administrative a confidential whitehouse washington october fourteenth nineteen seventy one five year memorandum from ronald h walker re charlotte north carolina demonstrations while

most recent intelligence that haven't received from the advancement building on the uss united states is we will have demonstrators and shot them all the numbers running between a hundred and two of the advancements gut reaction is between a hundred and fifteen to one they will be violent with a pencil underlining a while they will have extremely obscene signs underlining of st and next to that word i'm saying here's the thing so you're writing her words i believe it is yes or as has been indicated by their handles a law that will not only be directed toward the president but also toward billy graham underlining underlining also toward billy graham were you write

this book and then i thought a southwestern reinforced their lives like oh i don't know human creation the question everyone no idea you know

to promise to pay where is joe very nice apostles and the united states and only

three votes and the police department in the city of shrug you sign up as wider screenings of them as possible or eight thousand seats in the coliseum weeping of twenty five thousand tickets was a known fact there are demonstrators who had tickets therefore be necessary to set up a screening system to eliminate anyone as a false way to discipline all checkpoints using twenty five veterans of foreign wars between fifty and sixty or issues are being provided by the local republican party mr nye the thing that bothers me is that we are realizing the attention that was brought into the techniques used fear and concern that has since been expressed by ziglar warning was vehemently by pat buchanan feeling is that the press corps especially the liberals are very much aware of how the demonstrators of being handled and although the white house has not been identified with these

processes we are very much suspect you can maintain that there will be a lookout for demonstrators and how they are being mental illnesses feeling this could be extremely damaging to the president but even if the white house is only indirectly involved billy graham people of the great help they got their own problems of citizens' organizations sponsor billy graham day and a pretty well back off for many of the reasons are the exception and therefore we got very little support in yemen demonstrators in the whole question should we continue a plan to prevent demonstrators from entering the coliseum and the us initialed age and the consultations lot of the local police and local volunteers going have not are people of my question specific here ways to exactly what the mentality is in the white house that goes ahead and indicates ago when the word was mentioned in the senate he's mentioned which while some widgets it is to be directed against the present united states how in any way cannot be good senator i can explain that i think very easily big

problem that we had during the campaign of violence of demonstrations of seeing signs of efforts to have poland shut down the president when he was delivering speeches were very great they were not recognized as being very great and there was an attempt made in the coverage of many of these events to present this as a totally our reaction of certain people in the audience who were just there and i disagree with what the president said are expressing their disagreement in a proper exercise of their right to do so as contrast to do a planned organizations creating jobs and creating these things and in the way that they intelligence indicated this one's going to be here at the reason for reacting too the indication that there would be violence obscene and

directed toward as as good was that if in fact they were going to do this in this way it would be seen that they were doing so well sometimes they wore that in effect they did a better job of disguising their troops and their true method of operation and the reaction oh those indications was very much in that sense but they point out that the whole point of that memo very strongly confirms my opinion of this sort of activity was not to our benefit in showing the extremes there are steps that worker plan in order to try to avoid these people having the opportunity to carry out their ballots and there are also being directed toward the president billy graham at least in the mall we had no real practical reason to emerge outside the hall and in fact as i recall out at

their worst demonstrations outside but they're there was reasonably good control on the market that sharp police force so it was extremely rare and i think they didn't do a great job including recall that occasion some local police forces he kept the use of force in order to restrain of the activities that were that that happened in this case but as you can see here there were strong efforts made by our advanced than to try to do try to avoid and that's kind of all we had the intelligence that there were going to be this group there that they would be violent haven't seen signs that at least the majority why you oppose a very

good thing to do that it would ruin the prisoners true perspective to be continued and one that says let's listen to the nation's most part of meetings and all of the great compliment and this memo that was the problem with the economy thank you

you indicated in your previous testimony that mr larry higby was your administrative assistant so is the answer an assistant to an unknown serpas was deputy assistant to president was getting to me would've been considered senior industry now we will report you yes that they have forty you on important matters they report every time on important matters i get a report every time they had areas of responsibility senator that they carried out without the necessity of reporting to me well was it the requirements with respect to their duty is there anything unusual was going on in the white house

and they were an argument that they had to report to you no sir not of the view of the other oil that just the opposite as well as our policy and our standard procedure at then it was that was an understanding you should deal with all matters that came under his responsibility as best he could and should not refer them a part of us plus there was a necessity for that is to have that with them on occasion as eyewitnesses drawn also included in these competitions yes there were several different procedures at different times and i'm not able to establish which procedure was in effect at which time there was a period at which they're in which i attempted to hold a twice weekly group that included as derivatives trading mr strahm also mr carolina

rape crisis john been and several others who were supporting their work in somewhat the same sense that we have the senior staff meeting each morning but this procedure because of the time of day that we try to do it didn't work out very well because i was not a loose in many of those meetings in and therefore we drop well i noticed that there was a strong willed their present you with memoranda on different occasions with respect to activities i'm going on in the white house and also a crp was even one who were dressed man was going on until the butterfield or did you obtain an abandoned information from them i david i work directly with mr butterfield on on matters of people you'd need to be interacting with this tricky on a much more frequent basis on matters you go yeah you acquainted with theocratic here which was once an white house to develop an enemies list i'm

aware of the existence of any closer opponents literature and there would be you know i know that that from time to time we received from within the white house and from outside the white house from supporters of the administration both in the congress and in the general public complaints that people in and out of government treated by the white house and in ways that people were opposed to administration policies and i'm specifically more vocally expressing public opposition to administration policies on this would most frequently relate to the position on the war in vietnam because that was the most most thoroughly under discussion but people who are

or expressing vocal opposition were at the same time being extended extra courtesies by the white house in a formal invitations to social events in and other functions of the white house wants to honor important divisions inclusion on the allegations do not certify alabama not around a star that's one kind of people that i'm talking about complaints by friends with people who were opponents and more vocally expressing opposition were in the view of our friends treated like friends and the sense of receiving these special courtesy from the white and you're compiling a list of these people and as a result of the trends that we were interview unwisely extending these courtesies to the people who are opposing administration and in some occasions people who

after receiving an invitation to the white house and the white house use that as a platform for getting extraordinary publicity for their marriage question of opposition that as a result of these complaints there was a program about drawing up a list of those who in other positions were believed to be expressing opposition to administration policies and therefore should not be receiving these courtesy visits in the same context as a list of those who were supporting such policies and who should be extended such such courtesy is and the many times where i'm using exhibit victory which has been accused by mr bean and no evidence here i mean he was named one of the vietnam war excuse

me i'm doing and then you can come and mr eugene constantly mr leonard bernstein onto paper and not an actual game televised on how it's diane allard lowenstein morton halperin leonard woodcock as europe i don't think i would think that the public record of the time would indicate that a number of those people were in fact quite vocally and publicly opposing administration positions on oil thank you what was or what certainly they did that they didn't have a right to be extended be a courtesy of the president's hospitality in order to express their opposition well i are you in effect telling me that this enemies list was compiled so

that it would serve as an exclusion they asked for the white house why was so much waste in the white house whitman and communications between staff members first of all i don't believe a great deal of time was wasted in doing so the time it was expanded in was for the purpose that i've indicated and was in and that they are carrying out the effort of the white house to extend ours our policies to carry out the policies of the ministry for expression of opposition if you're objective was as you have stated it why was there an effort to involve iran's in are getting some of these people and why why their orders from the white house or the fbi to check on so many people

want to know what those orders weren't responding to it then mr hinckley who was your administrative assistant as given information to this committee that while he was in the grand tetons with the president than you he was that i knew to call mr boomer and get a complete background on your and misbehaving and he has submitted testimony in this committee in secret to that effect now to deny that those who did you do that i requested a background report on mr shor arrest yesterday to request one man in connection with the enemies list and i'm not certain what connection it was but i'm sure there was something that arose about this request was made and i don't know when and what context that there had been as has been

indicated here in earlier testimony concern from time to time about statements that were made and the reasons for them in in terms of national security questions and i don't know that this was was in such a plan that because i simply too there was mr shor being considered for an appointment those are he was not why would you take on the jet was made i don't know what the picture was made when it was a request for that it was in and it was something about it some of the rose at that time that that generated a request for a background report and the dish or the request i will likely emphasize senator was not a request for an investigation of mr schorr and at the time that the request was made it was forty the background while which the fbi has on individuals that this is a summary report on well when the investigation here

yeah going to do it get background on individuals when they go out to do it i would request was not that they go up at the request was that the fire what happened on the white house i'm sure those are the fbi the audience you know they have a file on most people are are known publicly request was for whatever violent immediately after every american has known publicly i think the things that i think that you know singing that paralyzes your is one case now the view of the ministers were you worried fbi checks on any other individual that you do that i don't know i want to feel it so testified that he that you did the testimony of mr butterfield

follow they ended an interview before the committee and this is this is his testimony alderman and occasionally ehrlichman had requested an fbi on non at point b to what appealed recollection this is that this is a man of his testimony butterfield recollection that may have been at such requests among them or frank sinatra and europe now one day at the park and he says has no presidential appointments in commissions and a number of times and that's quite possible the one loesser frank sinatra was being considered as an entertainer the white house and was an entertainer of the white house we are in a way

to say that annie entertainer at the white house and for that matter i believe any guest at the white house there is automatically a checkmate of his fbi file to determine whether he poses any security threats or any potential embarrassment and in the other sense and this is not it's unfortunate that those particular names have been raised and singled out in this forum because i would not like it the record to imply that there was any allegation of wrongdoing on the part of any of those three people any of the other five that were apparently on that list of eight that have not been made or any of the others of hundreds of people who have been so checked and since this question as i would also like to say that it has become popular

referred to tears the as the enemies list and now i would like to plead guilty to a certain a delicacy that's what was referred to an administration because in reading one of the books by one of the scholars who serve in the johnson administration saw that that their time this list was referred to as the anatomist and i must say that's a much more delicate terrible german government run yesterday i was conducting the examination on iran substantially over my ten minutes but nobody else was here but today at an abbreviated this portion my question to try to make up for that in june of nineteen seventy two arranged directly or through jumping or anyone else for a twenty four hours the ravens senator kennedy i don't recall making such an arrangement i know that it's been tested

by that such a request was made and was was not carried out an id i'm not familiar with the specifics of the reason for the request that there were times when there was a very vested interest in the activities of senator kennedy's some political ads on the political drama in relation to a church that he made with regard to her early release of the oath of his band that matters feeling with a reason the end of the summer developers whether or not the new authorized such surveillance observation our investigation i don't recall or really surveillance senator kennedy but i do want to emphasize that there were questions raised about senator kennedy's activities and various reports from time to time and such a question would have come up you regard it in our job any surveillance of senator kennedy relating to mr caulfield in

nineteen seventy or nineteen seventy one surveillance of senator kennedy yes sir which most popular might've been in awe of the art but i was not familiar with have to propose activities your senator kennedy in nineteen sixty nine in which mr us so it's my advantage of our cars are you had information about mr us away stop observation investigation or surveillance out senator kennedy at any time so i know the material witness for us to its operations in regard to any individuals i was not familiar with what he was doing or what is his objectives were or what has also hearing was composed this morning i see any

information so what is in your city to drag and information about the so called chappaquiddick situation was are generally involvement in those or you know to get closer you know whether that stroman in this abbreviated question you may want to think about now come back to later there's another around and i think there will be another round previous examination i asked to whether or not as the ecosystem and the president's approval among running a part as is cheapest there i knew or should have known that something was going on based on newspaper accounts other information that it might have gained an otherwise and you indicated i believe that you still don't know what went on

but that in retrospect you to see gross i'm sure indications that they you would interpret differently now and you do that is that essentially correction nation are off i don't believe i said that i saw a road signs that over now interpret differently and i may have my my feeling is that with the knowledge or at least the information that i have now i can probably force myself back in and related to things that at the time the anchor appeared totally differently i would like to emphasize that in relation to the white house which was my area in my area of responsibility i don't propose to do or is that anything was for or was not the only

one by what's been said here but that was the area in which i was not familiar and was the only area that i worked a day in the white house where there is any reason to even with the information we find out any reason to feel that something was overlooked and i have repeated often in these hearings and i tend to save my conclusions for later not taken aside all along i'll continue not just a mystery along and restated concern that i've also heard from time to time what is there about the white house operation this really previous administration which are familiar what is there about the presidency or the isolation of the presidency and i don't say that the critical way you can think of it in terms of the nature of the presidency the requirement for as you say the time to think about important things you can think of that even in terms of the safety of the presidency poses country as long time resident and possess but

what is there about the nature of the presidency and the stamping of the presidential system something was going on or interpret it in a way that it not lead in a different direction you know and then i guess except my promise that as i said and yesterday how can you read the newspaper shopping list of television happening here that are literally an uproar official positions even if you assume that they were treated if you start with the assumption that the charges and allegations are without domination invasions and five and that's the american way of doing it another operation and still not

initiate some sort of intense inquire at the earliest possible moment but what what is there about the system what is there about your apparition of the presidential operation was about the white house that would keep you from picking up a telephone on june seventeenth and saying where is this fellow gordon what in the world now that's an awful question but do you understand what i'm getting at what is there about the institutional arrangements at the white house that would not be inevitably leads you into a great virtue name for what in the world happened nothing else on the basis of music senator you were in the early stages of that question so that i might not accept the premise and that i believe would have to start because i don't believe i can accept the plans which is that such an important was not undertaken or that the interest was not

something is not done that simply isn't the case the most intensive inquiry conducted and certainly the proportion of that video nature of the inquiry was was beyond the scope of the imagination i was such an inquiry but i must go back in and i get the fact that you asked the question i understand completely motivation for doing so what distresses me because it indicates to me that what i've tried to say as effective weapons at this point secondly as far as the white house was concerned the total assurance was that nobody there had been an odd it was clear that there were people at the canadian pop it was not clear

who they were at first at least it became where as do they were there were still some questions that they were questions that were an answer and there were a lot of people spending inordinate hours trying to determine the answers to those questions as i understand it and i it was not an investigator i didn't instigate investigations into two other things except i was ordered to in this case there was so much under way that that anything i would've done beyond that would've been about them and i didn't have the capability you're the time to go into that kind of a thing and as i said it might opening remarks this is it an enormously important matters in a mistrial because of that it wasn't at that time i understand that i understand your testimony and only accept

testimony bass player you work as a moment listening interview earlier when you take your judgment as responsibility as a community and maybe that will help and that is really meant to be a self serving an analogy that's known to make that i and my campaign united states senate in nineteen seventy two the red and a national newspaper that someone on my campaign staff had done this or so and then arrested for it would've been thirty seconds and picked up the phone and say what in the world is going on and i ask you to compare the merits of those reactors even to comment on what i think my reaction and god knows what it we're but i'm not asking for that what i'm asking is any insight you can get me on why a

situation in nashville tennessee is the situation that she lives there and the white house in washington is there something about the isolation about the majesty of that mystique about the isolation presidency that because of different reaction other than that which i think you know i think it might have occurred and others are i don't think in the mystique or already have those kinds of characteristics that there isn't a record but i think that that the first president to have such a reaction as you would've had a near senatorial campaign ended that these things be done but as the areas of responsibility and dan sign of a man expand the necessity for delegation also expanse and having been involved in some earlier campaigns or richard nixon i can tell you from years ago he would have been on top of this

with or portions and what it would've been pursuing recently with great poet stephen nineteen sixty eight no i don't think so in nineteen sixty eight because in nineteen sixty eight he validated strong imaginative his campaign and responsibility for the management of this campaign and he hit by great self discipline so only from the operations of the campaign and as president united states he exercised a greater degree of self discipline in that regard an that required of himself this delegation and while he raised these questions you look to other people to carry out the responsibility of developing the answers to and he thought that's what was being done but not otherwise it could have at all or should you say i thought honestly i think he could have been if he had been willing to give up the vietnam negotiations and and follow up on the

domestic initiative plans that he was trying to get underway prior to the election workers bolder choices and even willing to suspend libya operation of the budget for the next fiscal year but i don't think he possibly could have done so unless you about al so the only other customers say the most of the advisers to that and accept that base pay a magnetometer that's where our combat an issue that some point own examine with a few more quiet presence he operates its first white mayor may not be necessary to do that these are the politics of the night your previous question i

will and beyond thank you now president nixon had some awkward for ways to mitigate it in a tavern some of now the director of the committee to relate to his reelection therapy oh yeah

mm hmm with bin laden he did not call any of those people and demand that he had been told me we reiterated a number of times he had been told by my mr mitchell is vigilance i believe mr michel said that he had met with the president shortly after the watergate and then add a talk with him about that

back on medication but witness to jail and where we're dealing with two different things there one is the fact of the watergate burglary which is a point that you cited and that as i understand it is to measure the top of the person about all the people i know and yeah the facts or as they were known at that time but i don't believe he had anything else to question him about other than what was typical talk with him about the key things that develops from that time on because it was not developing the president supports

the gimmick activities and now economically in the new novel and made them the yo ma nineteen seventy three except make an improv legend can be in through the tournament he says we refer to get on the news was the man responsible for dealing with all taken the concern about now i mean campaign funds that is absolutely correct his job and he was the only man in the white house has to do that because there are hundreds of people outside the white house and the executive to resign

well in the investigation oklahoma used that yet resolved yet and that you see a lot of those are right now so that you know any concern about well i think the report will need not to my knowledge no now the real question about what was in the meeting of the thirteenth of march nineteen seventy three reviewer kenneth pollack and it is ugly now you're new on the job on an opinion on ronda of that they even months later the president which girl allegedly occurred in

us i'm rachel martin it's my understanding that the allegations by mr dean was that they took place in my presence not in my absence will you let him and that's correct on one meeting the tape recorder know made of the meeting anwar is you've been great the person isn't the best elements of the law is one of the human body as a meditation the tape recorded

conversations and oh you also testified about going to rio you're welcome not all alone you always goes on all the action is set at that meeting as well now phys you know and

and i went what did you have in the way of documenting evidence that statement about the video and depravation of low productivity lot of september eight nineteen seventy two until march when the court's nineteen seventy three and the documentary thank you the check and you put the question and you come down and there's a bubble this committee as legal interpretation of the baby and the president's role

and the cost and they'll grab all the way and so yes the new questions and i'm not sure what the question was not that the president gave you access to these things and not understand him back to testify as to your interpretation of top of the man and the conclusion answer yes or no his

resignation of john mitchell in nineteen seventy two could you tell us what you know about it you discussed this with the president and what were the discussions have between rituals resignation discuss the president discussed it with mustard agent and then i can say that that designation the decision by an instrumental that it would be apparent that he resign develop over a period of some time that he actually he reluctantly but irrevocably to the conclusion very in those days but there was no other course we can follow or personal reasons that

are no longer very personal as he was very serious trouble and he's indicated that that was the case and he still indicated to me at the time and he thought that there was no way they'd be a lot except by relieving himself of his responsibilities as the president's campaign director ang lee when he arrived at the vice president of this developing new commissions are during the time that he was expressing to me and when we met for lunch on june thirtieth think that's right i guess when we met for lunch on june thirtieth the president has to make sure it was understood by all three of us that that was

the purpose of the lodging and nine it was the purpose was carried out joining us oh it was like jesus i think ms michal have been campaigning that is making speeches and parents that drive to the watergate break in view of office without it sen graham yeah i was

reading about the resignations ms roberts right you know and that's really why i'm asking the question why can only say in response to that concern that you wrote that is in no way as i understood that was the case that a state senator was was expressed by just a little bit that parents will arise from the soviet dictator that wasn't matter that he was concerned about a concern there was nothing nothing that he can do that he was reluctant to give up his responsibility

he's a tv actor given the circumstances it was not possible continue to carry the overall responsibility for the day to day operation of the campaign it could be available at times but there are times when he simply couldn't be available and that had been against the available you touched upon my next question testimony before the committee was going to rebuild i can recall regular meetings with some people

campaign director he's trying to do is it was not very much between the responsibility that one feels secure conscientious man if you are the responsible executive officer of an organization i'm responsible for the operation to being so available to the organization to be of whatever help that you can on your time available when you take on a job as a campaign manager and i'm sure your campaign managers are phelps a responsibility you take on a twenty four hour seven day week job and you worked

on that basis and you that's one of the problems of a political life is is that he was pretty much responsibilities and any other demands on your time especially during the period of the campaign and that was the problem at that vigil was faced as a kid total demand of the responsibility of managing a campaign versus the reserve the man but still continuing opportunity to bridges and be about whatever we could fall it's his responsibility to your question in his conversations with his resignation whether any discussion that he ought to resign because he had knowledge of the watergate break in after that he participated in the cup absolutely

not no discussions right now john dean were directly under you know straightaway yes substantively worked under other people depending on the nature of that particular task is really really what do you regulate those willing to report to you on pretty important to keep you and thought no nonsense and it matters because they he would report to the person responsible for israelis that was a statement that the

president at some time during the meeting and i'm paraphrasing now i'm impressed with your knowledge about this one is doing and i think you ought to rethink cabinet on you were calling i think i know i think it was in that meeting and i do recall at the suggestion that the issue oh ok very generous things they didn't try that if he had a prize the president of all the details about the johnny knew it fb fb