1973 Watergate Hearings; 1973-10-09; Part 2 of 3

a piece button a sense of that but more surprises to their muslim clothes not enough water renegade the vehicle no my impression is that the box was given the helm when he came in in the morning and he nearly won character how long did you work there before you is not our america three weeks and who in the organization not a name and picture of the who in the organization turned the documents over to the opposition of the original i don't know don't ask me and thank you

they were they were generally in the nature of the infiltration of penetration at their methods that i consider standard that i think most people in and political for years visitors with the opposition the messages the muskie campaign

as i can imagine prison in connection with the question of the summer this information would've been public knowledge to discuss the possibility of someone to assimilate what would be public knowledge of fourth mr musk is a position on issues of concern or anything like that or or you can start by giving them were fortunate about ailes i think the reason that i got them i didn't examine that closely i thought that they were getting any place else that they had known that the president had no access today in the form of a question mr manseau author camera to ask mr buckley it first came across doma why despite placed in the musty

office right now we're going to take a short break public television coverage of the senate watergate hearings will continue after this pause for a station identification on average coverage of the hearings is being broadcast as a public service by your local public television station this is pbs for public broadcasting service the pope the pope

from washington impact continues its coverage of hearings by the senate

select committee on presidential campaign activities it again and by correspondent jim lehrer as we go back to the hearing today senator talent has turned a question john bartlett it's b you first meet i asked her i met him in the early sixties in west indies a lot of the time i was with listening to me about the first time reading it was one of several people that show we interview in connection with our summer estimated to gambling establishment she began

writing that he was there and it really good weekend interview him and others that were there as witnesses over burgers now when you employ to hamed an electric they must be headquarters what criteria were you looking for as a person this was available would be willing to take do you think sen levin no when education money to finance it i

kept it in cash i kept it in the office and my desk or unsafe i kept it at home at different times and use of this is ahead they're known that they do a full time federal employee mr on that set and reviewed faded not thinking of duty desert was a violation that i'm not to do think that was permitted by that and that's a guess i didn't i didn't have any thought you didn't know that that was specifically who thought that were permitted by the headset i have no reason to consider that don't you think taking someone of personal documents and photographs and live our lives with the national oriented in a matter what it is saying and why our response you and

thank you political espionage i think its infiltration i think it's penetration i think it's something that occurs in every major election happens and i think it perfectly legitimate i think about you don't think and drive the true authentic whatever why do take the fifth amendment then asked for immunity before you just say i'm not familiar with the full range of law and a new election laws statutes and for that reason i thought that you know there may be something in those new laws that version on this kind of activity here operation was the protests to see them on investing at that entails is no wreckage of a plane i'm an

advantage in the liver photographs documents to consent must be two stripes on the committee to reelect president my estimation would be twice a month to each benefit once seven months probably fifteen times in one eight months or maybe truthfully more time you do that the operation was larger than you first evasion it would be larger share this not only was larger than that i was surprised at that early development of this kind in the journal be available to this man i didn't envision that such a thing would happen as quickly as a pillar that would happen at all you get more secret information than you thought you were i didn't see any classified information in there competition is so sensitive

you did find some sensitive to think you want a few activities were your vote will certainly cause of religion right thing ie what is esl and i thought that i was providing a service that i was a reference oh candidates in would have preferred the republican president be really unfortunate sheridan friends are now on an operation did they give any from the previous operations when you deliver the documents just rent he was more prone to abuse and time and a cosmonaut was concerned that my previous three months before you also are being delivered tonight on actual documents just want to move forward

and that vacuum and senator there were occasions when a taxi empire would bring a press release from the press and that would be delivered in its form there were two occasions when i and wires and provide the material for a cow mr lance said that you know that information were to receive campaign really compress on the contrary to me about that memo had come from the material and he told me at that time when i confronted one a year later so he told me that he applied to me in the fact that memo had come from the committee relate to others in a way and information were to see them of course a limitless durant's get leaked to the press those media he did

that one particular moment only long after the campaign that the committee had set that to what was a total amount of haunted to receive the operation sena my recollection is that that we went about seven months into was seven months of seven thousand now and that was eight months and say thank you have heard from our september nineteen seventy one through april nineteen seventy two that governments throughout wild sour ale york which ran for graphic material and etc now fallen way again when it was in the newspapers you recognize it is that you've been dealing with mr wyman was in fact how about you would come from shannon about that family

i know those concerns but it occurred to me that this was saying that i mean a huge that's a really committed are elected president i don't think that there was anyone i was acquainted with that discuss it with i certainly did in the next year ratings ratings previous art isn't telling biden reagan and you give any thought to the one the authorities and telling them about get no vote and form an fbi why not but informing fbi will activities that i had been on the activities to live longer and your

associations power i didn't see any connection terminator three or four months before the war you made him on the street and clandestine man both of you using aliases and transformed our collection cache wanting to think it might be something a little mysterious i think that was that worsens or beauty and it isn't on transaction like on an effort by it i there was a non transaction forty four election year you thought piano on both parties using aliases and foreign stolen documents inform grab normal transaction am legend ian pannell was going back months i think that will be called discrete that's where the heat where did you learn ethics and political

campaigns i suppose nineteen sixty four to nineteen seventy three some political machine in some big city added you learned that fresh island much of it was written and now you ever discussed you involved in last intelligence operation would you should carry a list to get some lemon senator evans and i would stand and they were trying to promote communications with him in regard to the activity that we've been discussing today and one ever instruct to remain challenging a new apartment thank you for the question

what would you expect to find was really useful information so when it started i didn't know what the fine i didn't know what he would be rejected meaning they can gather i certainly thought that would be i'm not much of a tour to find out where the senator was going to be and days and look for weeks in advance what the position of the center would be an app reviews and issues staff list of his daughter has volunteered for the days they all were printed a specialist with the thoughtful members of all volunteer force thank you we're looking forward to really gel

and audiences toward saddam was who is doing his campaign things you say the material would be before the final it's understand the hatch act for me evidence unlawful in your official capacity of your government will lead to get a new election or influence an election and understand you know john doe oh the correct there's an alliterative investigation second inspection you in any way and that's a much bigger operation use your official position was one of five or six reliable believes that there would be no common facilities are mature use it will be done on my own time nothing illegal indian law and that i will be the judge of what it really isn't

and that is one reason that i think so the headset as i read it did with anticipation collecting a fine privilege like a passing out literature running for office taking part in partisan conventions are meetings that kind of thing and it's all spelled out in the air both cities are chief counsel counseling to question thoroughly with it and some of the carnage that touched upon candidates in west virginia in north carolina these involve reform have months investigating irregularities on the part of the preceding the governor of

the state it was written what was that there are finer and i maintain iranian candidates at that we were involved in there we found out that a millionaire we found out that there were kickbacks involving the corporation's reportedly you decide to do this cleanup before that day new information we can get onto the candidate

who made available to the european conventions this fall i'm going to try to investigate in this convention no sir i mentioned that two occasions at the request of the government that the us or the republican candidate i want to look into some reporting it amounts to ordinary negligence in this situation pro

bowl and the second instance that read all of them and borrow a review of it registrations unfolding in the nineteen sixty eight election and the border to find out it was based allocation allegations and we did find some instances and others we do no or what did you find that in how many documents did you photograph them this must be up for the recall there would be

catalan forget any that with the times one of the three or four and early might be a time as in case there was one back in my weight can you describe these documents many more detail you mentioned want to possibly out no more detail in a memo from a staffer who knows that her memo from a staffer to senator or a double spaced draft and i'm not sure there was one on the unemployment rate believe is worthy of the documents that were being carried from his campaign headquarters who is correct what was going on possibly are

activated those staff in the senator's office it would need to consider these documents for the worse did you find any you know information and what you for granted indicated there was any surveillance or intelligence gathering being done by the muskie campaign against it and no sir they indicate to you know any of this information was useful and these documents i did not discuss that all about and i never had an indication that even with was useful on the country and there were complaints that especially in the early days that the film wasn't right that it was funny that we couldn't read it was upside down that type of

thing not many accolades are very issue the leaks by so it seemed to be in the area because of that also when you were appointed to your job or you will say i don't think it was a fundamental sponsor some for his experience with the economic opportunity act that some fifteen years of investigative experience i

refused visitors weave through political espionage when you understand that you would be paul ii at an understanding that what we would count i had no idea that would resolve as quickly as it access i just want to clear about when you look at all your job on what you know of the earth now now i had no idea and i was asked to where the previous fourteen ministration was a whole political

activity grant recipients of all your fun such as those involving legal services and community action programs and those things political activities to disclose political activity what do we would submit reports those civil service commission on to the other this week in argentina generally between lebanon to all about once a week maybe twice and some weeks there in the day a lot of this is dirty work eleven people

i didn't think you were going political activity was being paid by the public and they go riding at exxon and we considered related politically so you don't think there's any similarity between grant recipients political activity i ate recipients or were ever disciplined than any fashion four volumes of political activity no detailed a

subpoena is on just mission nasa had no idea that his day all would you characterize would just say that it was illegal motion on ethical i would not say it was an act in terms of election year in terms of what we were seeking to do as an example so many political as well as those are all time and has been on for many many years i don't feel an event that i know of instances where five or six a trained investigator to conduct a surveillance is not participating in the national elections political as

i i don't kill an investigation of someone they differ with me on i don't feel that i have to justify responding the way i get to requests from generations who isn't and in response to this the question you didn't feel that it was the last thing on the part of you and mr weidman for grabbing documents without proper recording i don't know that would provide some frozen thought about government documents that would have

lost and that showed consumers it has been done and i mentioned the legend is is a way to proceed on that investment property a critical refinement you're really seductive would you consider the interception of communication for the invasion of privacy as being illegal immoral unethical so no i don't consider voice for the united states a private matter of this ruined the invading the privacy and that i think about candidates are expected there will be investigations of them in their activities and i think again it's expected there will be attempts to ascertain what their activity is in what their position on issues is do you think we should make a few changes for the next election

surface of the legislation that will deal with political espionage it will that may be quite complex a wooden have no idea how you could describe and then enforce bn i think it's done every election that the three or four that now govern before that me and there was a lot of it was a little like consumer yes and yes it was to was that the videos legal rights activist i think it was on the false pretenses intercepted communication what's really going on what the false pretenses statutes a similar reasons of food to be a volunteer idea of the second certainly it did many things beyond what he did that there were major insurers and he continued on and interviewing losers as written

was but client relationship with that mr lerner we're afraid that their attorneys with you here is what we hear the question was asked whether i have discussed with mr leonard my mind that point one employer and employee so there was a time when i went in the house on matters involving my involvement nineteen seventy one seventy two

a nineteen sixty nine trillion caulfield and a friend of mine that one occasion on this relate to no no seventy thousand dollars and your reaction

you were fourteen petroleum reporters about one report i wouldn't consider reporting it as income and i don't think every quarter report is the fences or providing benefits relationship now be careless open over the ground below with the staff lent her three occasions months in saying that we have today no i wasn't quite clear in my mind i was your explanations of investigations in west virginia and in north carolina where these investigations you're conducting in the capacity of

working for the house committee on education labor nineteen sixties employee working in it the investigation someone asked mr stricklin investigative the previous administration are now your investigation north carolina what passes as a friendly republican have a personal favorite of the republican candidate for governor and isolated instances i look at the two things that concern him now i've gotten

the reading here from eminem who was sent to the attorney general vibe or anywhere thirty first nineteen seventy two our first question would you at that time and very first journalism into the nation's surveillance operation in mozambique his campaign organization son justin trudeau and ask who were not any of the items litter identified here here in washington dc

invitations for the senate who appeared there washington affairs conference on march sixteenth at me no indication that they feel pleasure in the senator's introduction of us two nine six fires so called truth and seventy one two sentiments has been invited to speak at the nineteen seventy two convention the undemocratic over wisconsin convention scheduled for march seventeen nineteen seventy two at the last moment with him on a lot and actually costing the house office building fourteen point to washington dc as contribute to the most conservative campaign for mr wylie home and doesn't polish national alliance of the united states of north america also true of three washington dc supports obama's campaign his address is five one one nine temples world washington dc corporations you're welcome

latino but for specific situations just because thank you i have known and ten letter n roses last letter to senator

mostly from robert okin financial and salt like an anti western countries it's my expectation that additional funds can be available in thirty to forty five days notice true you photographed israel this really matters is your turnover or are related to financial contributions not to my recollection isn't three more question here can you be more specific and tell me about other instances other presidential elections central asians

were whereas you know that you engage people refer to this as the basis for office can recall employees were the nineteen sixty four and nineteen sixty president elect o'neill done some investigation and the investigation the investigation of the election of individuals an election was going on during a lot of this investigation after election so i have been investigating in recent weeks several train investigation the nineteen sixty campaign and the verses or

worse you are investigating the work of investigators who investigated the sixty campaign now you know political activity but now you say you know you're doing this at the present time so obviously this wouldn't be a justification for the actions which he took the court's eventual action

i gather you were motivated to justify those actions on the basis of my feelings political intelligence gathering vital information is done as a matter of course like as a matter of practice on specifics on what specific steps you had and when you launch on this type of work in mr stern muskie's campaign which was the basis on america's would just decided to make these things into specifics in nineteen sixty four and as a viewer well a question

want a small state who the survivors will experience that doesn't go along with such were here and we are both points of view on the table and quite frankly i think the people of connecticut my libyan tunisian peoples country who don't think it should go these days senate the conclusion campaign season you've got people who will linger in covers on set to talk about them in london i said for a year and there was the

gatherings by financial markets we expected when we be taking the weekend about the winners by senate committee democrat versus republican he's been in the senate most of fifty questions for the republican nomination he did here lecturer at the time when i

was in a big us on wednesday to show that this vote was the silence the sympathizer i think the same thing and these running through your mind when you think about those things at all i was this is a passion for the patient or an easy thing when you lose an election well you know sometimes

the whole world turned upside down by what seems to be a natural or understand what i suggest that our washington dc to the natural world we devoutly how long were you a member of the fbi when you entered the fbi did you major qualifications as a lawyer but an important part in being admitted and when you left the fbi when you work for me and can you work with that to me as a million dollars an investigator to start and you are a twenty one year a new pakistani law and all those

new pride yourself the name of the buyer you take great pride in the name of our sun tabloid pride when i can i was happy when i pass the bar you feel an obligation to your profession ethically i certainly do i would have to sing on tour well how do you feel that that you have an obligation as an individual to your profession irrespective of whether or not you are practicing war i i don't know what obligations i had to my profession i pay my dues observant what i consider to be a reasonably ethical existence that you had and that had a few minutes ago that you engage in

their political connections to call her that's well people call the terminal and that they said and it was designed to at one of the candidates for president is designed to agee's committee us are now you also stated that day while you were doing ari and while doing that you employ of the office of economic opportunity and us and that we're going out these activities during the day i was getting them out during a period of eleven to twelve and one or two days a week today julie thanks and that's when you would take

him on and continuously without fail i couldn't believe it the musky in committees that are not what they called it the point i make is that you feel that because you were taking undertaking this task through your lunch hour so called lunch hour with the eleven twelve o'clock the one that day were then acting probably not writing now i don't really have to say i have never been uncomfortable with a quid pro quo between the government and within twenty five years i think that they did well by me and i think i did my work for twenty five years that's happening as a different

question it wasn't because it was eleven to twelve i didn't think that activity is covered by the second i think it's bailout mansoor well in one way it is a different tone i don't think they're the same thing i think they're apples and parish i'm satisfied and i wasn't using any garment time and human resources i don't feel it now rubio well again and that takes that governs the behavior of lawyers and the responsibility family see one that's fine a lawyer should maintain high standards of professional conduct and should encourage fellow lawyers to do likewise it should be temperate and dignified and he should refrain

from arming illegal and molly reprehensible conduct because of his position in society even minor violations of the law by a lawyer made him the lesson public confidence in the legal profession will be used to augment amplifiers respect for law and lawyers especially respect for the law should be more than about it do you feel that that this provision apply to you so i have no problem that vision i see nothing illegal activity that we've been talking about the one i'm from september seven when a positive then that you stated a few minutes ago that said mr wyatt was the corner of these documents was engaged in some kind of receipt at the reception i

was something different he was legion and that dishonesty own that center will was in a dishonest into a grassroots on the documents do you temporarily when he was there working for the muskie campaign internet sites it's working and i think there's elements of the session so everything was taken bears were the rubber gloves were used to i don't see anything in effect until you feel that there was any foreign law it was from all right then i will read you a somewhat vague items of misconduct that would

prosecute under an ongoing and the body i won that one or two engaged in combat and marling dishonesty drop the state or miss representation you participated in this state i think that data over here so i remembered too i don't think that us involvement that's actually just met him of something different question don't you think that the sort of ethic governing the legalization twenty four hours a day there's

no question well you think that they would remain in the legal profession as a license number of the bar thank you and by the same token if you violated any of the other hand and you would be subject to this region that i would be if there were a violation and of the reasons there's a culture of the chairman as euro sixteen which created this committee for a presidential campaign activities of the nineteen seventy two has that kind of male it illegal unethical it

is clearly limited to nineteen seventy two was extended for debate on the senate floor about whether the resolution should be amended to extend beyond nineteen seventy two resolution was my soulmate so we're dealing with nineteen seventy two but it seems to me that we have a problem here of forgettable be an illegal and into an ethical or undesirable which are made judgments and highly subjective an amazing new benchmark take their course lastly the benchmark for some basic errors that made this the eye mainly to some years ago i make that statement also fully understand why i'm asking the next line questions about a

way to circumvent the mandate no resolution which created for jurisdiction on this committee but rather to service some other guy out of his committee and making those judgments on whether certain conduct is undesirable unethical as distinguished from illegal if it you know instances of political ads and after that many details mcconnell two years or even some suggest protests against certain matters have been abused in this record would be that the democrats did it to be sure

that's not online search for that i am searching for some basis for a comparison very excellent question that in some work there we can do with additional cancers objective analysis we need law and taking an important significant that which go into that may well be political communities and set up what is unethical or undesirable once routine wagner what's done all the time what is about some information about that and as one member of the committee of like others along that position of the alleged misconduct reported that another can arrange the question was what what is the standard on politics american you haven't given as much so far as well was to get it as one member of the committee had to hear

and so i don't think people are to this committee's hearing we're conscious that political information and he entered the navy had that many of them are telling point just a moment ago we were were mandated to work for me and the violations that have a lot to inquire also in libya legally may be unethical or undesirable now if that sell it but there is a general opinion in the political community of families are hurting that gathering information services where you can put a political espionage was the normal an ordinary thing to do our human and not unusual like any

religion other instances of the previous year i suppose to china last week that this podcast will probably cut off it as an expert witness said notwithstanding you mentioned particular information based on her poems are experienced in opinion if we work with them that will be the next day fb it's been