1973 Watergate Hearings; 1973-07-20; Part 4 of 4

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b somebody was killed and i express myself in that regard in the eye i could've maybe i would have expressed myself in that regard and get without knowledge of what mr libby had told me and i just said if you're going to put in his file all the fact that you knew as a lot of those would include with a nod to the fact that there's plenty of gold i thought mr mitchell lot of put in the memorandum all of the facts that he knew time in concluding what was the lady i wish we didn't go into that i said i think you're in order to protect himself as a justification for his conduct what do you do we designated as the un

were that not have been violating the problems are not revealed that you were planning to do so to that advise mr mitchell book i have this information in the memo what's <unk> you could put in the memorandum was up to mr mitchell i'm not up to mr martin i didn't think i don't think mr mitchell was by now i thought you said that mr mitchell and you've appeared this memorandum and you have a new political thing is true mr o'brien constructed mr o'brien to prepare the memorandum and i presumed he would talk to mr mitchell and prepare the memorandum it was almost immediately thereafter mr mitchell told her and did you confront mr mcgrew to witness the ladies assertion that he missed the magruder right and i don't think i i doubt if i said mr libby told me

that you're welcome to just a five page four seven nine for that one or two days after your conversation with mr libby us mr mcgrew whether he directed mostly to go in there and even that at that time you did not say most of them grow that visibility is only knows her alex i'm sure you did not say they didn't say you must morning where did you get that information it would make us the question of the neurological question for me to ask him if he had anything to do with it he uses words of mr libby's money and he had been on the absent was the lady that was not a known factor why would be any more logical for mr mcgrew had

to be asked that question and with the medical mystery was about in congress and the two are still working together and what i like to read you just a few lines she testified two years that mr mcgrew is whether you said i think he is probably was aware of the fact that i have been talking mostly movies and bob and i would be less than honest if i did not say that it knows that if injury went up there and testified that he was not involved you would be if he was going to go and take the fifth amendment a question well good you know after he testified what he testified

to understand that you know i did not i knew he was not indicted so he must not have taken the fifth and he must not have testified as to the truth question so then you have some indication that mr mcgregor had committed perjury and estimating are you talking about the grand jury a question yes mr martin yes i think i knew an awful lot and i suspect it an awful lot mr martin i like to ask you if you often they do with the aba code of professional responsibility our

family with the aba professional responsibility is that i say is we're not aware of all of its provisions any more than any other american i'd like to review please rule dr seven or no one for me and the program it receives information clearly established establishing that is cat hairs in the course of that representation she'll probably qualify and it is catchy uses all is unable to do so he's yelling viola fraud to be effective personnel drive no to a person other than his

plan has perpetrated a fraud upon a tribe you know jump probably reveal the fraud to the driver you know i would actually whether you believe that this rule would require either to attempt to rectify this testimony in order for him to call i don't know the citation of cases it was really easy i'm a little lost now the same candidate trips or other there that relate to the conduct of the spanish professional something to do school because inquirer socialism

many voters you do as i can imagine that these are matters that might or might not be relevant to the charges of his professional misconduct is beyond the scope of the proper environment committee chairman and so the winds that it is observational what you find that question

really that has been asked for that might be given the opportunity to answer was chairman billy west understand that withdrawal raises the question in the case decided to support of many cases one thing on top i could be wrong on that is that it is not the lawyers who need to shut the lawyers do is to prevent the courts to germany now where i've had conflicting evidence as to what law and although i still dont know the truth i told you what i suspected for me to go to a tribunal and state mine

subjective judgment to him to the detriment of a person who has confided in me i think would be highly improper and that is my view that was my belief that is still might be i like it we're going to have a recession low at this point for the remarks i made about the scope of the inquiry and no i will not be critical of exceptional lawyer is an energetic interrogating witnesses and i think that the record clearly show that it was only an abundance of caution that i want to call attention of the witness to the importance of the question being what it is neither criticism of the witness council committee will stand in recess until the conclusion that well with the issue of

legal ethics from all over the senators are taking time for another form of public television's coverage of the senate watergate hearings will continue after this part for station identification on a bridge to coverage of these hearings is provided as a public service of the member stations of pbs and public broadcasting service the pittsburgh the pain the

point with the us and that continues its

coverage of hearings by the senate select committee on presidential campaign activities you again correspondent jim lehrer as we go back to that hearing senator like her have one more round of questions for our party then going strong former aide h r haldeman will take the witness stand and fewer reporting one of first you get along with the director of the fbi and i get along with them very very good relationship i believe that one the conversation with the meetings were partly social do you ever

say to anyone do you use your return is an investigative writer on one occasion i asked attorney in my vision to inquire as to the matter that was then subject of inquiry in the united states and it involved a it involved a question that had come up during the findings confirmation hearings when a member of the white house staff

had obtained the pictures that purport to identify two people together a picture was to be introduced into evidence by united states senator i have taken exception to the use of the photograph because i didn't feel it was relevant to the hearings there had not been established simply because the two people in the picture together that they were friends before the united state senator introduced this picture was a group picture i suggested that we take a proportion of ascertaining whether they were in fact france and i asked an attorney in my division during the senate hearings go to the place where the picture was taken and to inquire of the

people are openly in october li whether in fact these two people were friends says was quite obese suggested by the interruption the pictures i ascertained from that the interviews he made but they were not that i requested the picture not be used by the united states senator i was going to and unfortunately that already has the picture and that's the only time you can recall a new cemetery in the internal security division been investigated i don't know that it was exactly an investigative function this was a matter of pending before the united states senate involving the department of justice and i thought our best use of attorney had in the last news this is the only cause

you recall saying when you first came the first came over to the internal security division remember the federal investigation the quote a way to solve this is to set up a list of leaders and we taught him from prosecution and we go i want to cover twenty four hours a day until we get a recall of such things if you didn't make the recall are making that statement to the then assistant director of the fbi in charge of division with respect to a particular investigation

no sir thank you jesus and my interview with mr brown he also made history never wants to us and do anything illegal thank you very much for help we've already requested a new forty seven return of that appears the syrians are certainly sevens the committee was expressed wishes you for your cooperation i like to express my appreciation to the committee for its grisly end its cooperation

with strong women senator leahy is where a testimonial about older than nothing but kerry's visit mr strong just by way of elementary and as these major nine addressed until thick of a question of just a name is gordon strong ad to hamilton supreme court

and your pc as strong previously before this committee in executive session for certain questions will put you right to decline to answer on constitutional grounds at which time you're right where are our grandpa boost immunity under title eighteen section six double o to an six double file state co signed by judge dancer actor you have been instructed to answer questions which you get have the executive sessions the attachment of the grant use immunity share rules apply for testimony now an obsession so without reliving the substance all goes to present my dad's record by virtue should respond to questions what i counsel for the committee a committee members and proceed according to the ability to

answer under the bosco jurisdiction and the effectiveness of the order which to receivers are like the common interest but no i think the entire community of my satisfaction in executive session we will incorporate or portions of chatter means that session and this irritant this point it is as the vice chairman and members of the committee i'm here at the request of the committee and prepare to answer fully and truthfully all questions related to the matter is the supply and senate resolution sixty establishing this committee's jurisdiction strong libertarian

wrestling over ordered as you know i met three times in executive session with the committee and its staff in order to permit the committee to prepare for today's question in addition and four prior occasions my attorney met with committee attorneys to explain the subjects on which i can testify the committee voted unanimously grant immunity with respect of his testimony my counselors advice in testimony under such agreement is illegally proper procedures intended to permit a full canon disclosure of the truth about the watergate matter i should also add that before my discussion with this committee i had met already voluntarily with the watergate prosecutor's on three occasions and my attorney met with them and their successors on for more occasions in short even prior to testifying here today and made a complete an honest disclosure to

the original prosecutors to their successors and to this committee much of the information i will disclose as politically embarrassing swimming and the administration so that shows that are closely associated during my employment at the white house with individuals who have confessed to criminal wrongdoing or other witnesses have made charges if i know their statements are true i'm here to confirm the truth of such charges even to the extent it might reflect adversely on me you'll find that i will readily admit today many things that anyone who's trying to cover up with quickly denied but where i know the statements of the witnesses are false i will deny them not have a motive to protect anyone certainly not out of the moment to protect myself for i am confident that the immunity i have been granted as genuine in other words my intention to corroborate specific matters answer a few others

does not stem from the desire to testify for or against anyone nor from a desire to think excessive remorse solely because i'm here to tell the truth press reports are predicting my testimony here have been nothing short of incredible in testimony before the grand jury on april eleven nineteen seventy three appeared in the nation's newspapers within a week of the grand jury testimony as required by law be kept secret next several grossly inadequate and contradictory versions of my expect the testimony before this committee were reported although the committee's staffer confirmed that the newspaper headlines were serious distortion of the information by turning to ray gave the committee then on the fourth of july television radio and newspapers reported coast the clothes that i had agreed to plead guilty only a few correspondence even bothered to ask my attorney whether that was

true despite the racism the store was run anyway and finally the day after my testimony before this committee in executive session several immigrant stories about my testimony appeared today my testimony will to the displeasure i suspect many as interested onlookers conflict with these mistaken press reports in the two and a half months i have been unemployed i tried to review the information i have to contain this committee and bringing out the full story about the watergate matter i believe it would be helpful to take a moment now symbolizes a missing links and the testimony of other witnesses and hopefully clear up some of the confusion and contradictions at least to the extent of my knowledge i was a staff assistant my office was located in the basement of the white house one of my

responsibilities during the president's re election campaign was to serve as a liaison with the committee to re elect the president it was my job to accumulate all the information i could obtain for members of the white house staff personnel seventy no one republican national committee and from the campaign personality states and cities periodically i was to report important political matters and gentlemen i wrote many long reports untitled political matters memos describing the current status of pending political matters here relied on me as a member of his personal staff who would obtain information on campaigning matters either i would have the answer or i would get as to the subject of political intelligence gathering however john dean was designated as the white house contacted the committee to re elect the president i've advised the committee where the documentary proof of his point is located as a

result my inquiries about political intelligence were slight mr halden so i may attend meetings on the subject he rarely ask me a question about the subject and so seldom reported about it nor <unk> the report to me about all his activities in the area of political intelligence when the subject of political intelligence was mentioned the media attention or i knew the subject was on the agenda at the meeting i was not invited to attend i would as the staff assistant follow up with the principles and remind them about the subjects discussed and those occasions when i made such followup inquiries of mr haldeman about political intelligence operations you responded that i should let the family life on up with mr dean he rarely advise me in any detail about the status of intelligence matters instead we don't directly with for example

neither mr allah nor mr dean advice minister as a means of mr mitchell dean living and were nor was i invited to or informed about mr deans february meeting with mr hollande at which mr dean says he told mr haldeman that the levee plan was outlandish and that the white house should have no further involvement you mr haldeman mr dean nor for that matter mr ritter ever told me of any of those meetings and i certainly did not attend any of them turning to my duties and reporting activities with the committee to reelect the present i found myself in an unusual i'm not entirely comfortable situation i was the white house a conduit for reporting the activities of seventy no one including activities and mr mcgregor the man who shortly before then my boss at the white house mr groos reporting practices were marketed

features first he considered it a burden to report through me my role as <unk> intended it was somewhat of a constraint upon <unk> reader's ability to have free reign at the committee independent of the scrutiny of the white house as a result they're frequently trying to avoid the reporting system mr gruber did report reported as much as possible on successful developments reflected favorably on his campaign leadership and as little as possible on projects that were not going well and projects that when smoothly are portrayed in a good light mr mcgregor would often give a full report directly to mr polman or mr higby are ineffective or failing projects he was on the more than a brief mention to me and the general subject matter just enough to protect himself and later criticism that he had withheld information from the white house case the project with police now second he considered it

a serious impairments of his status to report to me rather than someone more senior especially since he had previously been my boss at the white house he asked that it all of mysteries here is administrative assistant his position on this the recruiters that correspond and mortar my position installments i did increase my contacts the mysteries here and other campaign aides continue to assess the new directive <unk> on many projects with respect to that particular subject of political intelligence mr ritter has testified in very general carefully and characteristically vague terms but he assumes you're automatically send the materials about or call me and gave me a general description intelligence plans had anyone ever heard the

details of prostitution cruz whines kidnapping and wiretaps he would be unlikely to forget i certainly would not forget it mr mcgregor never gave me that information and certainly not those details because if he had i would immediately have passed that on the mr haldeman i would i remember i would be here today testifying about by any standard means it was the lindy plans were presented with classic examples of course that work by the committee and a waste of time the testimony has been virtually unanimous that mr mitchell and mr dean or shotgun in his plan the servers that man gordon liddy was apparently quite humiliating and nothing was approved no words if those meetings were routinely reporting to mr haldeman as evidence in this remembers administrative ability and judgment in january and february meetings were not very likely inspire confidence of mr

haldeman or the president that mr mcgregor testified that quote as you recall he returned to his office after both these embarrassing meetings and routinely called mr kellman staff assistant me and told me about his blunder presumably so that i can inform mr haldeman that testimony is difficult to reconcile science presumably mr mcgregor <unk> been report on the means to mr goldman as his genie has testified he did why would mr mcgregor want to people reporting is a disaster for mr waldman it is true however that mr mcgregor called me after he returned from the march thirty nineteen seventy two mean it was stained with mr mitchell and mr laroque and reported on about thirty major campaign decisions each of these decisions was

briefly describe that rather short phone conversation during this call he told me and i'm repeating his words rather precisely quote a sophisticated political intelligence gathering system has been approved with a budget of three hundred unfortunately you gave me nor did i ask for any further details soon thereafter i wrote one of my regular political matters memos for mr baldwin this particular memo for early april was eight to ten pages long with more than a dozen towns or attachments to contain only won three nine paragraph on political intelligence that paragraph read almost verbatim as mr ritter had indicated to me over the phone i wrote in the moment in history again the

court ritter reports that seventy no one now has a sophisticated political intelligence gathering system with a budget of three hundred a sample of the type of information they're developing is attached to turn age at tap h i enclosed a political intelligence report which of necessity from the committee it was entitled to his reporting and to others like it that i had received began with a statement such as quote the confidential source reveals or a reliable source confidentially reports this was followed by a summary of some political information in april nineteen seventy two i was mainly interested in recording industry called on those thirty campaign decisions and other relevant political items i did not get my spot what mr mcgregor meant by quote sophisticated political

intelligence gathering system nor did i give much thought to be a religion of the abyssinian sure to remember that the information they'll consider humphries pennsylvania organization however on june seventeenth nineteen seventy two and afterward as the news began unfolding about the break in at the democratic national committee certainly began to wonder who else but people from seventy no one could have been involved i suspected that maybe the watergate break in was part of a sophisticated political intelligence operation mr gruber had mentioned to me on the phone to her label and worse i feared that sit in sheer to so called confidential sources were really have been a wiretap or might in some way had been connected with the watergate break in i'm really sorry to have to report from israel mr mcgregor do not return my calls on saturday and i was not able to reach him until around noon on sunday and i

didn't call them in california when i finally reached him began as the morning about the watergate break in the coming up and said that he had been on the phone with mr allman that morning on the matter was being taken care of i doubted the mr mcgregor had actually spoken with mr coleman so i called mr higby the clearest most calls to mr goldman mr higby told me that mr nader had talked to mr coleman minister erlichman was handling the entire matter i met with mr haldeman on june nineteen or twenty and showed him the april political matters memo that mention the intelligence gathering system after speaking to him i destroy that memo as the damage here too as well as several other documents have told this committee and the prosecutors about i also told <unk> been that it had destroyed a political matters memo to

mr baldwin showing three hundred thousand dollar intelligence budget at the committee and three confidential source memos which i said could possibly have been wiretapped reports with the source's carefully camouflage it and not tell mr dean i have in fact destroyed wiretap laws because i was not been sure what they were i only had suspicions i also told prosecutors in april of this year what specific items are destroyed and i told them i still suspect it's sitting in here too might have been a wiretap someone does not intend to return this reporter testified before this committee in june but i learn sedan chair to was not really a wiretap but was instead in and former planet in the comfort inn in fact you'll recall that mr mcgrew his testimony has established that i never received his wiretapping data york and i passed that on to others or shredded

a wiretap transcripts he says he made only one copy of the watergate wiretap blog code named jim stone he testified that was so sensitive that you would not let him out of his office turning to matters after the election and told the committee that i returned approximately three hundred and fifty thousand dollars in cash for the room i was not told why anyone nor did i know what yours was being made of this money and receive the money from the campaign committee on this tree pollens instructions and at that time returning veterans to receive appropriate since he was the top official at the committee i took it to him in december nineteen seventy two or january nineteen seventy three after i had left the white house staff the money was the fun i had picked up in april nineteen seventy two for the

purpose of conducting white households it had not been used to pay all expenses major as originally planned and after the election i had been asking mr baldwin mr dean and mr higby what to do with the money the delivery to muscle rule was made into parts on two occasions december or january after talking to mr dean i took approximately forty thousand dollars into envelopes to listen to ruin his apartment the watergate i live two blocks away and the delivery was made on my way home from work later i was asked to return the remainder of the money i can call mr mcgrew who again asked if i could deliver to him at his apartment on this occasion for picking up the money i never saw you i'd been instructed by mr dean to ask for receipts so i did mr mcgrew refused saying you'll have to talk to john dean about that

at that point became more than a little suspicious frankly after mr lew put on the gloves i do not know what to say so i said nothing more than i know what to do so i left the next day at almost routine but mr merwin not give me a receipt for the money as dean said he was beaten as general about i don't know that there is a follow up on it because isis learn from yesterday's testimony that it was mr call them into grass the receipt given at no time did mr dean or mr rew advised me what was being done with the money or the payments were being made to the defendants neither of them ever asked me to do or say anything that i can interpret as being part of a cover up in fact there was only

one occasion when i was expressly asked to do something that i knew was improper which i could see was aimed at a cover up that related to my upcoming grand jury testimony of april eleven nineteen seventy three and i refuse to do it i have not attempted in my statement to describe in detail all the subjects that i mentioned that provided the committee in executive session with a good deal more the details surrounding these objects and i'm ready to begin the question it's been placed

on the pushback has been so the week that has been like a wearying rollercoaster ends in a type of suspended animation gotten stronger former leader which are all women has had a chance to make an opening statement but no one on the committee hasn't had the opportunity to test his veracity that will come next week and there's every likelihood that strong as further testimony barring a really startling revelation won't get that much attention when he returns to the stand on monday all eyes will be on the white house where a response is expected to the committee's request for access to the watergate related traits then the law will be back in senator ervin's court and the attention that isn't directed the acquisition of the tapes will be spent in anticipation of the appearances of parliament's himself and john ehrlichman strong could get lost in the shuffle basically what the committee wants to do is to confirm the chain of communication that one from the writer of the committee to re

elect obama to the white house with strong as the congress when waldman says is compared with regret is just make it may appear that something's got lost in translation the president returned to the white house from bethesda naval hospital and i said he expected to go back on a regular schedule after weekend at camp david returns speculation that he would quit are people there to keep potential witnesses who could probably clear up a lot of the confusion about the watergate case was president nixon who has made it clear that he doesn't plan an appearance the other is g gordon liddy convicted conspirator who has shown to determine reluctance to talk in fact correspondent peter kay today asked she committee counsel say and that's whether continued efforts are being made to give lily to change his mind you convinced that you know a connecticut a confession as the ruthlessness of this council and is willing to come forward and

testify on says that he's not and it's true that his testimony really necessary this with complete waste at the completion of the fact that i believe that we have the testimony from so many witnesses as what was that he had said one day they emerge coinciding fans of what his testimony as i think we pretty much know what most of that his role was as regard that's the actual version of the public plan i think has let himself would have had we don't have the money because he was not president cuba's than i was as a witness to mitchell and monotonous and there is that one is that he really can't say that's why and therefore the question as between the financial system on the list of these testimonies credit whether the evidence afterwards and i think that was just runs

statement and the testimony that he will not give after a week of what michael lesser witnesses were building to a climax with mr haldeman and mr goodman do next week but it's a scenario for the rest of this phase now mr jd and the estimates prime minister will testify minister lebanon and then the scores of family members will take up a balance of a weakening which just cause and the violent year for this team this is what we follow what we have ten of the same witnesses that the deal with the question of whether or not the cia had been sought to be used in an effort to restrict

investigation so how has this question the witnesses today still has some testament to give them and that says witnesses that have an effect if it was an instantaneous mr o'brien robinson art to export observers for the day were clark mom not nation's best known investigative reporters watch and bureau chief for the des moines register tribune a nationally syndicated columnist and junior special consultant and investment the president nixon and david epstein was an attorney an adjunct professor of law georgetown university law center here in washington last year mr epstein from a witness stand or how would you characterize this week war watergate this is the transition we get witnesses than a century explain how to cover up operated competition last the route are directed their testimony and with respect and cover from a major portions of monday's testimony or parts of john mitchell's rebuttal testimony in

the john d testimony was still spends the major outline of what happened during this period is their strongest of testimony will be the centerpiece of focus the beginning of next week there are no police station which brings it up to the next level to the white house mr erlichman of mr haldeman and mr strand seem to be picking a fight his opening statement as picking a fight with the press and more important is to give testimony and also dropping some very tantalizing information for example america represented eleven nineteen seventy three and the present was asked to do something but he didn't go into any kind of detail as to what that was less than the dillon usaid do is i think that next week the senators will be asking map of the silver fresh i suppose after the weekend and to require a lot of other question in terms of finding out through strong what he knows respect the start agreement although that i must mark of course in addition to the witness is the big issue of the week is still the white house takes up a

mascot of this essay or the standpoint how would you say the scenario going on the stand i would expect that the committee members were state remain united on the basic thrust of requiring that the president took make the tapes and other presidential papers available and i would expect that archibald cox a special prosecutor would move oil from his position within you executive branch or has been promised the papers by the president at an earlier stage and through the grand jury which would be in essence an arm of the pitcher and would paint a subpoena there are when the president is faced with subpoenas from the congress and from the grand jury he will be an untenable political position particularly if you still need to make the tapes available so cox was a member of the executive family and he has already promised that he

would make those tapes available for presidential papers available and this would fall in that category and i think that in the congress itself there will be a general backing for this because it's difficult to sustain a possession of closing down evidence that is relevant on the trail point and the material point is that either certain conversations between dean and the united states took place where they did not all that there were certain things that took place in those conversations i am assuming we have not been told yet that the conversation on september fifteenth nineteen seventy two where details as the president thanked him for his efforts in the watergate cover up is a matter of record some place because it would be within the purview of what butterfield said is available there will

also be tapes in february march and april up where there is proof available now i don't think we know about the disinfectants certain that bain did not know these were being kicked the president did and that would have some coalition on his approach but the time where i have an idea but whatever he said on those tapes will to a degree probably being although they may discredit him on some other point cartier grade that a couple of things that we do save the last two or three nights on those late hour program but it is no longer really a legal issue has become a public opinion issued as not a public issue is the public opinion issued this stage and the president is trying to make this appear as a situation where he is not really guilty

and he is not trying to hide anything what he's doing is upholding a great constitutional a process and the separation of powers rather reminds me of the situation several years ago are dave beck was taking the fifth amendment and he was trying to convey the impression that he was not hiding anything that he was not engaged in criminal activity that he was taking the fifth amendment because of his great reverence for the american constitution okay gentlemen thank you very much as he's got that they were the best analyze weeks of these watergate hearings robert macneil and i and our guest on this program along with everybody else and that access to a typewriter a microphone has done the bit about the tapes for instance many of course probably would not go as far as the monarch just did opinions vary widely it does seem at this

point however that only the president and his close friends believe that they should be withheld from the committee and john ehrlichman former top white house aide nixon friend and a key figure in this whole affair has even come out in favor of this of their release as as the president's number one congressional friend senator hugh scott the senate minority leader so maybe like a football game or one team and forty five points ahead with ten minutes to let them again when to step away for the clock to run out the witnesses this week did little more than to talk about their quote limited in quote involvement in this sort of mass called watergate and point varying degrees of finder's others it's still difficult of course to characterize gordon strong all we've heard is rather prim and rather pompous statement we've yet to see how he handles the cross examination sting that that is yet caught in short most of what needs to be said about this week's events including yesterday's vote has already been set so our clothes this week with a few parting words of praise for the members and staff of the senate committee

regardless of police and opinions about watergate and as doubts seriously if there's ever been a congressional committee that worked hard putting into longer hours over a longer period of time tv lights presidential aspirations and pure showbiz politics aside nobody can ever say that the guy's in charge of this historic enterprise did not put in a full day's work robert macneil and youre gay and jim lehrer a nice weekend was due on monday from washington you've been watching gavel to gavel videotape coverage of hearings by the senate select committee on presidential campaign activities as coverage is made possible by grants for special event coverage from the corporation for public broadcasting and the ford foundation and has been a production of unpacked and a vision of a greater washington educational telecommunications association you only men

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