Woman; 335; New Image for Black Women

[Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] Woman. An in-depth exploration of the world of women today with Sandra Elkin. [Elkin] Good evening and welcome to Woman. Our topic tonight is "New image for black women." With me is Marcia Ann Gillespie. Marcia is editor in chief of Essence magazine and a board member of Essence Communications. Essence is a magazine for black women.

Welcome, Marcia. [Gillespie] Thank you. [Elkin] Marcia, I want to hit you right away with a quote. "You object," you say, "when you hear other women say we are not all sisters. And we-and we don't all suffer the same things." [Gillespie] Well, I object when women say that we are all sisters and we all suffer the same things. Uh...Basically because you know we really haven't. I mean, it's...uh...very simplistic. It tends to try...it almost...it...if you want to use the term white wash the differences that do exist. And I just don't mean between black women and white women, between black women and other black women, between white women and other white women. And it also tends to make one of us, especially when we're dealing with white women, who often will use that term to me. It usually tends to do something for black women and that is it makes us...um...have to take a backseat. You know, because my life story has yet been, you know, to be told and I have to tell it And it is different. [Elkin] When you first took over Essence, now what year was that? [Gillespie] 1971 [Elkin] and

you were very young. [Gillespie] Yeah. [laughter] [Elkin] What was Essence saying to black women at that point? [Gillespie] Well, you know, Essence came out in May of 1970 and I, like many women who ?picked?, I was very excited because it was a beginning to talk about positive images. Absolutely. But, unfortunately, it began to look more and more like a fashion magazine, which, uh, I did not feel and that the readership did not feel was necessarily the vehicle that they wanted. So what I tried doing, and I hope I've been successful in some part, is to broaden the mix. Because for a long time...um...the example that I use, even with my editors, is that when I used to look through women's magazines, around the period of 1970, I used to tr-to break them into like three categories. There were women's magazines for the young mama housewife, you know, and it gave her a bigger and better recipes [laughter] and new ways to pretty up the kids. And then there was that kind of magazine that was really for the clothes horse, a very high fashion. And then there was a third one, which I always called "how to get 'em, keep 'em."

[laughter] [Elkin] I don't know what you're referring to. [Gillespie] And, quite frankly, you know, when you're talking to black women, none of those...each category is much too narrow. Because a black women we're...we're interested in clothes and we're interested in children, in our homes, and we're interested in men, but we're are also interested in work because we do, and we're interested in politics and just the world in general. So I really wanted to make a-a healthier mix in the magazine, which is what we've tried to do. And so I call it a new kind of "service magazine" because normally when people used to say "service" they meant how to keep your pots shiny [laughter] or something like that [Elkin] 12 ways to cook hamburger. [Gillespie] Right, Right. [laughter] Even though we'll do "12 ways to cook hamburger," but it won't be the big story. [Elkin] Are you trying, in any way, to make the Essence reader a better consumer? [Gillespie] Yes, I hope we are. We do column every month on consumer information. Past and beyond that, I think that just in giving readers a great variety of information, uh...they are becoming more aware, as I am, when I

read some of the stories that we run, which that awareness then translates into how we do what we do. [Elkin] Have you done any film reviews on the black exploitation films or have you made any comment through the magazine on those films? [Gillespie] We've done both. [laughter] I've written I think at this point must be two, maybe two editorials on the subject. The last one was this summer. I got a lot of letters, some were good, some were bad. But basically, you know, my point of view, which therefore is the magazine's, is that you know I'm very...I...I'm...I used to be very angry. I've ceased being angry, I'm just annoyed and very disheartened by the films because, on the whole, it...to me is just another stereotype in which black people and black women are locked in and 9 times out of 10 we're either all suffering or we're hot mamas. And, even though there are some black women who might fit in either one of those categories, that's again not the totality of what we are. And so where we're being limited. The television shows, the movies, I see a limitation. You know right

across the board. And I really do see...uh...just, what shall I say, an update of an old stereotype. [Elkin] Was there an overwhelming response from your readership in one direction or another? I mean did most people who read your magazine dislike those kind of films? [Gillespie] The...if I can use the letters as an indication, yes, but at the same time I know those films do make money, so someone out there is going to see them. I'm hoping, that it is really not our readership. [Elkin] How does Essence deal with the women's movement? [Gillespie] Well, you know, I always say to people we deal with it pragmatically. I take a Sojourner Truth...[laughter]...kind of a,ah,a road with it and that's because I do think that there are some things in the women's movement that are very positive that all women can gain from. On the other hand, I have felt for a long time that it basically is a white, middle class movement. That many of the issues and concerns that have, you know, caused great deal of furor are not the same issues and concerns that, at the moment, are a top priority for me.

I've also had great problems, because, you know, when I used to hear, fortunately you don't hear that as much, you know the, the kind of categorization of men as being you know male chauvinists and pigs and all of that, which was of course the, the, the loud stage of the movement, that really kind of turned me off because I can't turn to black men and start doing that because A, uh, they haven't had a chance at the power. I'm not saying they might not turn out to be all of those things, but they haven't had a chance at the power. B, because I know that there's so much pressure being placed on black men and black women that pushes us apart can't, you know consciously, help that, you know. But, I just hope that the women's movement will, shall I say, broaden the scope. Really begin to not just sort of talk at problems that do affect women who happen not to be middle class, in the traditional sense, but will really become involved with the problems. I always say, you know, its like when I heard women, white women, talking about the need to fulfill themselves in meaningf-with meaningful work, you know, getting out of the home,

and I always say to them, you know, I just wish black women had the choice to stay home and raise children if we wanted to because that's something that has always eluded us. We have been workers, we are workers. Our problem is that we work in menial jobs so we don't have-get enough money for what we do. You know, so there are differences that have to really be looked at and embraced. [Elkin] You tell me when we spoke earlier that you were going to try to do an issue on how black women really feel about white women. [Gillespie] Mmm hmm, hmm I think it's overdue. And I want to also include the reverse. How white women really do feel about black women. We've been looking at each other now for, you know, a couple of centuries and with a great deal of hostility. I think for most of that time. And I really do think that if the women's movement, if any of the things that the women's movement is really going to, you know, have any meaning the first thing that's going to hap-have to really happen is we're going to start being very honest about our feelings and perceptions of each other. You know, pro and con. [Elkin] Would you project on, and ?I don't know if you want to do this in a little bit?, can you project and, and maybe tell me some of the things

you think might be included in that issue? [Gillespie] Mmm. I'd like to look at myths. Myths that, uh, have, we meaning black women, have fostered about white women. Myths that white women have fostered about black women- [Elkin] Tell, tell me some of those myths. [Gillespie] My goodness, you know it's like in many ways, I would say some of them hit head on. Uh, when I grew up my images of white women were basically that you were very lazy and indolent. I would say that for many white women they grew up thinking that black [laughter] Why did I think so? Because, uh, you know, in, in the neighborhood that I lived in most of the black women went off to clean, and take care of, and raise white children. While the, and I couldn't understand, you know, what were these women doing all day that didn't go to work and didn't do anything? Um, we have to really look at, for example, the whole idea of the, the beauty myth. You know. What, what, who's to say, that, you know, do all white women even fit into the category of beauty? I.e. you know, she's usually tall, she's usually blonde, she's usually thin.

[Laughter] You know, she usually has very aqualine features. Where does that leave a lot of white women? And also what are our feelings about that? Because more and more black women are competing with white women. Competing for jobs, competing for the affection and love of black men, competing, ah, you know, right across the board. But if we're really still feeling in some way that we can't because we are inferior then we have to look at that and, and explode that kind of, you know, feeling. [Elkin] The women's movement didn't really open up a line of communication did it? I mean, it welcomed black women into the movement but it really didn't do the reverse. I mean it really didn't make an attempt to say, all right this is a conduit for us to exchange information. Not really. [Gillespie] I think that maybe, you know, [cough] I wouldn't say that there was never any attempts to do that. I think there were attempts, but I don't think they were- [Elkin] But I think it was like a lot of other rhetoric, though. I mean people were saying that that was to be the end result but in fact it, it doesn't seem to have happened. [Gillespie] I think that's true. And also what happened is, you know, the women's movement came right on the heels of civil rights,

came right on the heels when we blacks were really pushing so hard to finally break down the barriers that have, you know, kept us from really you know growing and enjoying America as we should. And there's, you know, there has been, you know, incredible suspicion which I have felt. You know, it's like a line from a poem that I use, which was one of Langston Hughes's poems. "I have taken my blues and gone." So that the suspicion was also, oh, ok, so, they want to work, whose jobs are they taking? I have to work. You know, my man's just getting a chance to really stretch out in the, in the job field who's, who's going to make, uh, room for white women and us? You know? And I think that these sorts of discussions really do have to happen because we see a shrinking economy. [Elkin] Mmm hmm [Gillespie] You know? [Elkin] So, I think most women who work now have to work. I think it's not a matter really anymore so much of choice as it used to be. [Gillespie] Yes, but, you know, even in that there are degrees. [Laughter] There are degrees. You know, 'cause uh, one, one could have to work to maintain two cars and a great house in the

suburbs. And one can have to work because one's paycheck is absolutely necessary to keep food on the table. So there are there are other degrees. [Elkin] Right, there are lots more women, single women, who are heads of households now as there are single men who are heads of households and I think that, that kind of makes it a new ballgame in the sense that because there are such a large number now being introduced into the economy. [Gillespie] That and also because, you know, we see it right now, you know, blacks have been and still are, you know, still the last hired in the first fired. So that when we look at what's happened with unemployment and the effect it's had on black families and, and single blacks it's really been very devastating. [Elkin] In '67 and '68, during the beginning of the Black is Beautiful thing. Where were you were you? Were you in college at that point? [Gillespie] No, I was working at Time, Incorporated as a researcher for Time-Life books. [laughter] [Elkin] How-how do you think that affected you and, and what effect do you think that in general? The whole Black is Beautiful thing? [Gillespie] I think the best way to describe it is it gave me a very special glow inside.

It, um, [pause] through words that needed to be said again and again and again and it didn't make me feel very special. I felt, it's very hard to describe what was happening at that, that time. But one of the best ways was it was like a family pulling together. It was a great deal of love, I mean, there was a lot of anger and rage, but there was a great deal of love that was we were expressing for each other. And it was very positive, very positive expression. You mentioned you were working for Time magazine as a researcher- [Gillespie] No, it wasn't the magazine, it was the books division. [Elkin] Ah, ok [laughter]. Did you find it necessary to leave the-and, and I'm using your word, the white publishing world? Well, that was a gradual process. I knew after I had been at Time, incorporated for about two years that it was not going to be a place that I was going to be able to make a home for any length of time. [Elkin] Now why was that? [Gillespie] Oh, several reasons. One of which is you know, I began to see who had the power. And you know power is

important, but for me it was. Because I could see who could make the decisions. And it was basically a white Anglo-Saxon and Protestant institution pushing a very limited, even though they covered vast subjects and areas and tried to do what I think fairly, they were limited. They were limited severely. And so I ran into problems on things, as you know, varied as whether to call Wounded Knee a battle or a massacre? Which of course now the Department of the Army thinks we should call a battle and which, at that time, one of my editors at Time, Inc. thought we should call a battle. Uh, by the time I did start working on a Black history series, it was, I mean, it was just constant tension constant tension. And I really came to the conclusion, I'm sick to death of having everybody else tell me my life, and I have to get out of here because I think my sanity was at stake. I don't think I would have gone raving mad, but I was turning into a very angry, bitter person and I couldn't let a job do that to me.

How did the people around you respond to that, or didn't you tell them? What, My feelings? Yeah. Well, I think most people got a good sense of where I was coming from in the whole thing, and basically I think they felt, 'look, we pay you a lot of money, there's a great deal of supposed status and prestige working here, you know, you're either going to be happy the way it is or maybe things will get better.' Well that may be, and if, you know, you can spend your whole life on, and I knew that I would not function very well there anymore. And plus I had outgrown the kind of job category that they were only willing to give me. So there was, there was, you know... Have you found a way to cope with your anger, that kind of anger. I hope so, yes. A great deal of it is because, you know, because my circumstances have changed in the sense that now I am getting the chance to talk about my life or our lives. I am in a position where, you know, I'm not having to wait for someone else to say, 'yes, you can do it.'

So that, you know, since frustration is a form of anger, that level of frustration has disappeared. The second part of course is that I no longer am in a position or even try to place myself in the position of reacting to the larger society, to what whites think, feel, whatever, and instead I'm in the process of, you know, of evolving—philosophies and ideas and information that are about blacks and for blacks and by blacks, which is a very much more positive head trip. So that, that dispels it. Now I still have angers, which I hope I will be able to work out, but I feel a lot more in touch with the better part of me now. Well, you have a lot of power now. Yeah, yeah, that's nice. [laughter] Does that scare you at all? It used to. When I first became the editor I was 27, 26, 27, and it was like getting what you wanted. But you know how you say oh that's what I really want to do but you

don't have any idea of all that it entails. So I'd say for the first two years I was terrified, terrified of, well I had to give up the idea that everybody was going to like me, you know. I'd never been a boss before. I never knew anybody who was a boss before. Getting adjusted to that, which I'm still getting adjusted to. But I'd say today no, I'm not terrified, because I think I have people around me who are strong enough in themselves who make sure that I do not misuse the power. You have a support system in other words, really? Yeah, yeah. Yet you have complete control and that's something that you insist on. Yes, yes. And that's unusual because there aren't that many people, Marcia, in your position that I think have complete control. That's probably true. I think that a great deal of that is really due to the you know, the management, because the publisher and the president really do understand my philosophy and were willing to take a chance on an unknown

entity, which is exactly what I was when they hired me. Marcia, Are you concerned with sexism in schools as say, the women's movement is? I mean, do you feel that little black girls need to know things about sexism that they're not being told? Well, I think that, you know, black girls do need to know more about, you know, what's happening in terms of sexism. My level of concern is not nearly as great because you know I always have the feeling that, you know, it's like I was saying to you earlier, black woman becomes one word for me. And my great concern is that black children in the school system are just being mowed down and blown away, and it's not about girls or boys, but still for great numbers of young black kids going to school, their horizons are limited because they think that our horizons are limited. So it's not about male or female. It's becomes more just about people. You don't

have anything in Essence, do you, for little girls? No we don't. Even though I get letters every once in a while will say I'm 13 years old and I wish you'd do something for me in the magazine. But that becomes, you know, you can't mix things like that. We're a woman's magazine. And so hopefully we're giving information to women who are mothers or women who are around children that will help children, because helping mothers and women cope with children and understand what your children are and all, but nothing directly aimed at children. Where do, you know, black kids get those messages? Well, there is a very fine black children's magazine being published by Johnson Publications out of Chicago called Ebony Jr., so that there are, you know, ways of getting it. Then, of course, too, you know, positive images. If, if Essence helps a black woman feel better about herself we're helping black children. What about Ebony? It seems to have, you know, correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems

to me that success is highly emphasized in Ebony. You know, is that a philosophy that you agree with? Yes and no. I think that for Ebony it works, and it works, and I always go back to this. When I was a little girl growing up in a small town on Long Island which was predominately white, Ebony coming into our house every month showed me black people living lives that I could not dream of because I did not see them where I live. Just as I think that was true when I was growing up, I think there is also a need for, perhaps today, for people who don't see it in their ordinary lives. Also because successes among blacks need to be applauded every step of the way because, you know, we're still at the stage where we're still talking about firsts. The first black this and the first black that or maybe the second, and we have to applaud those successes until the numbers become like 30. You know the 30th or the

300th, and we are still a long way from that. So I think that it all is part of giving people positive images, you know. Now for Essence we do try to push success, but perhaps not in the same sense of -- I'm not as interested in, you know, if they're living in a fifty or seventy five thousand dollar home and we never really talk about things like that, or how many cars, things you know, the "buy me" stuff. But we are talking about people who have managed to make change in their lives and that's success. What about the other women's magazines, and I don't-- I'm not too interested in us naming names, but how do you feel about them? Well, I've never been very knocked out by women's magazines. Did you read women's magazines before you began? Infrequently. [laughter] Infrequently. I remember saying when, you know, when I was there, when I was first, you know, applying for the job I said well, you know, I don't really know very much about women's books. I never really

liked them, you know, because I always think it's so narrow, in one sense, because we're people, And, you know, I just didn't, when I've always looked at women's books, I always felt they were still dealing with women as if we were something different and strange and had to be either babied or panderd to or whatever. I I was never tuned into it because I never saw myself in any of those women's books. I mean, you know, the time when, it's just been in the last really five years or so that women's magazines have paid even the slightest bit, and I'm talking about white women's magazines, of attention to black women. You know, when a black woman can even model in the pages of, so that I was never even in it, you know, from jump street. Past that, I've always felt that if I were a white woman, I would be enraged because they don't show you; you; they don't give you the totality of you. I mean I look at so many of the magazines today and they just look like upgraded, you know, movie magazines. Does Paul Newman still love Joanne Woodward? What nonsense. [laughter]

But hey, you're buyin' the ticket so, you know, so I can't knock it; they're successful, some of them, you know have lots of readers, so somebody is readin' it. I just wouldn't. They're successful but isn't Essence at the moment the fastest growing? Yeah, it's nice. We're the fastest growing women's magazine in America, which is very nice, you know, and it's-- I think a great deal of that is also due to the fact, you know, there aren't very many magazines out there for blacks but past and beyond that I will not be shy. I think that we are giving black women a great deal of information that they really need and want. We are also talking to them as if they were adults. We don't mince our language. We don't wear white gloves, you know, when we put the magazine together. I see black women (you don't?!) oh no, you know, or even use some of those quote unquote four letter words when I think they are appropriate and I think it's about, we talkin' to a family. It's always about to we and us and ours. And

the readers are responding to it. One of the criticisms that's sort of general for all women's magazines is that they don't really deal with the older woman. Is Essence doing that at all? We have done articles now and again; we have not done any concentrated push for the older woman. Of course, you know, one of the things that again intrigues me, OK, is that I use older women that I know as yardsticks. I think they're interested in many of the same things that we're running. What I say is just, are you interested? The columns that we're doing really don't have any necessary age to them, because I know women who are 50 who are going back to school. I know women, you know, the sexual health column doesn't cut off at 45, [laughter] so I don't really... You know I think I think it's almost pandering when you say "Now we're going to do something for older women." We have talked about certain issues, you know, that affect older women more, but... If you had to, you know, in just a few sentences describe what you think the new image is of black women, how to do that?

Well, if I were going to describe the image that we're trying to portray of black women, it comes as a whole, whole human being, not a woman who can be just looked at, you know, in very tight stereotypical terms. I see black women as being adventurous about their lives. We are willing to accept challenges; we're mountain climbers. We've had to climb this mountain for God knows how many years. We're yes-I-can ladies; we are very positive that we can still make changes that will affect our lives and other people's lives. I am always very hopeful when I'm in the company of black women, because I am still and I hope will die that way, knocked out by the kind of life force that I feel coming from. But... They're pretty terrific.

Yeah, I agree. You have lots of covers, Essence covers that have both men and women. Is there a message there? Yes, absolutely. I'm constantly reinforcing the fact that we do love and cherish each other because, you know, sometimes if you read other things you would get the feeling that that does not happen, and even though I think that you know this country has created incredible schisms between black men and black women, II think that there are still many positive examples of people who have managed to cross the void. And I do think that that's one of the things oppression has done. Oppression has made it very difficult for us to wholeheartedly come together. You see, because we have people like Moynihan, who'll say that, you know, we're matriarchs and, which is really not true. We have people who have been touting for years the fact that, you know, black men leave their, their homes which is only become a recent phenomenon and really is based on economics and oppression. So I'm constantly trying to

reinforce in our minds that we build strong family units, because I came from one, I know too many other people who came from... And I think they have to be talked about. We also do covers which will show black men with children, again to reinforce that image because too often it's being said the black men don't love to stay with and take care of their children. We have to keep, you know, singin' a happy song. Marcia, thank you. Thank you for watching, and good night. [music] Woman was produced by WNED TV which is solely responsible for its content

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