1973 Watergate Hearings; 1973-06-27; Part 4 of 5

it's both we have discussed the watergate on previous occasions before that we discuss the thirteenth we talk about money in clemency you told me his earliest my february meetings with him that that i was report directly to him at that point i had to check some of the exhibits that i submitted you'll see that decisions being made as a result of the meeting and was at one point i decided that i had to tell the president what the implications of this whole situation before the quake i had become known about the rollout problems as a result of the bacon and that the co op could not continue

well at any rate it was being discussed in these meetings they were committing these meetings member stations the rules committee i didn't feel it

the situation was much discussion of this committee i think that was a rambling discussion i didn't have a particular focus not that we never got down the specifics the meeting was going to happen and before that meeting and take the heat on and then to see the media is that it was on the morning as i think that you know that you i don't have the communication from mr o'brien that mr hunt was making a new an increased demand for now coming directly to the

white house and i could see that the white house is going to be increasingly in increasingly placed in the position of having to deal with the situation precipitated your question was meeting with the president oh i have discussed with more with more for many many months out and this situation how to get the president out in front of it so that he would step forward and say this is what my involvement is this is what the picture is from my standpoint ms jones yes and so but it

wasn't that easy in this regard my conversation in a more mainstream or do a lot i didn't know everything for example when he had recommended that the president really is you a letter of censure mr chabon keep him on that point here don't understand you take the scans and he had not heard that tape that i'd recorded with posters reading will continue on one question in two for one these twenty fifty now that strikes me as very surprising all these four and guatemala's at least to many things custom made for a crucial meetings early twentieth fifty

years wisconsin and suddenly mr mitchell magruder conversations and i think that was when he was somebody was a change in posture and they realize that point that i was not going to vote for or you go any further they went to california well in california i see no change in attitude on behalf of anybody in the white house that for that matter the president for the fact that given him what i thought

was the most shocking way i could present this situation to him and i decided that point that i would do it and i would make my decision naturally when if you're a couple of prosecutions for what i believe the first meeting they had was on the afternoon of april second and then there were a number of meetings after the others the earth and they were discussing one of the federal prosecutors the subject of a new video of times that correct i wasn't present at those meetings in the world of a word of the ivory that they're discussing it has you know

the discussion dean and his testimony to find out what his testimony is about whether he's a witness what is the defendant and even so lopez we can find out and did you advise mr hall when you engaged any further discussion and i the eighth april the best of my recollection and i was meeting directly with the prosecutors an arrangement that made mike her testimony had been explained that in

some degree to the prosecutors by my attorneys and it would have been worked out whereby i could deal directly with the prosecutors last question i'm in a manner that anything that was given to them would not be used against me later that meeting was scheduled forty eight as i recall and before that meeting the reaction i got that was in my mind he's based out of the two six days after

that is correct and i did not that i did not reveal that i'm what not what i would do in fact that is that i would go ahead and talk to prosecutors i'll select state at this point you really couldn't tell him you do i got that reaction it was a woman at the white house prosecutors

when you get to see the president on april fifteenth you told me that you had engaged council emergency meeting with federal prosecutors that correct on i believe it was me late in the evening on the four team mr shepherd got a call from the prosecutors saying that that was going to be necessary to reach the privacy of the conversations will be no because they have been asked to report to mr peterson and in turn for the attorney general as to where the grand jury was going and what was likely to come out of that i think you should also remember the test but i on the preceding friday or saturday the same day earlier that they had i understand also ensure

that make your decision to come clean as we might call it an engage attorneys and going to federal prosecutors and tell him everything he knew about the case one of the movies he's going to do well my answer to that is that i had watched a flying protecting operation mincemeat border with california i had seen such been signs of that as well that's increasing signs that one ever i would for example raised testimonial points of leicester mike piazza he took a well as we like quite that way and i wasn't really good

at protecting operations or you think of washington in i wouldn't say we were protecting the operation that that made my decision of what i was going to do and to find out how that's perceived as the senators pause and they're grilling of john dean to go to the senate floor for a vote will take away public television's coverage of the senate hearings will continue after a pause for station identification on average coverage of these hearings is provided as a public service by the member stations of pbs the public broadcasting service it's b fb

from washington and vibe continues its

coverage of hearings by the senate select committee on presidential campaign activities here again correspondent robert mcneil as we go back to the committee room john dean is being asked about each minute detail of those white house meetings at this point sam dash is a technical question about these memos liz bell was it copies

mr leno really before wrapping up your alike depend on many occasions that you prior to march twenty three years leading the prayers when you and he discussed the color of warning conversations about it there is a direct conversation about my reporting to him on watergate at and on february twenty eight he told me that i should come and report to him because all the minutemen are

principles it was the peaks boy in twenty seven years it was nineteen ninety in the conclusion of that meeting and he was right

was not dissimilar from a company that mirror i interviewed him this thing has been contained but i was not sure it'll be contained indefinitely he then told me the job with that you know you got to fight back on situations like this and i can because something i can express in and writing the adjuster when he was an incentive is that really keep fighting back there was about seventy and about the cost of meetings regarding dealing with the attorney general and i'm really only interested in may i think really the kind of planning a blank direct conversations with the president on not that

strategy meetings about the committee are about the only thing as we have a continuing sequence involving ten years they've actually from the nineteenth to listen finally ended and brings me that year and a day with every aspect of the matter us relations two points i think i've gone through it once was so what i'm talking about these cases where you have the president directly this post watergate cover singing some material wanted to alternate of commons on to your question is the number and witnesses say that came up on the meeting on the

thirteenth and a lot of march and again on the fifteenth of april in which he had told me that he thought it was foolish and the couple's meetings that i've done it is i really do conduit for those decisions and how it wants it all and was left hanging of them any specific instances of obstruction of justice while senator and based on

conversations i've had with him i work yes i understand and answer your question i can tell when when i'm talking with somebody in that they have some conception of what i'm talking about and i certainly had the impression that the president had some conception of what i was talking about are not talking about impressions turning away from i told him that i had been a conduit for a lot of decisions regarding support for science and things of this nature and i felt that about me and an obstruction of justice the president didn't think it did you mention any of these decisions i don't imagine any of these incidents but i did not get in the specific instances gentle a pleasure

activities of one of the other meetings were you discuss specifically the cover up of war ii i bet that hurt subject about my involvement in any obstruction position also came up at a meeting which i cannot be recalled more with president i had mentioned this to get more and more it was another one who thought that i had no legal problems and it was but when we're in this situation it's been i'm out the march thirteenth meeting where the matter

of executive clemency and eighty million dollars came up the next thirteen years of unspecified demands for money they've come to me through mr o'brien i'd also been having conversations with mr mitchell i might mention this because it's just i just remember this now there was at one point in time after mr moore had been the visit with mr michel in new york after meeting an effort to have that rule go out and raise money that have been discussed earlier in your router done some activities of this nature mr erlichman mentioned to me that someone ought to go to muster

he would be of any assistance then minister will ruin mr pappas had had some business dealings and as a result of business dealings mr lewis encourages something like we'll be done with e coli that mr pappas might want to have some favorable consideration to the government on some although matters that result must be killed and who they were and i reported this trooper like mine and ehrlichman told me to give him a call when everything was necessary who was going to raise money and i gather that what prompted me to raise it with the president at the end of the meeting and it was on my mind and i tell them that you know the more money there is no money to pay these people and he he said how much lower

cost passive my best estimate is a million or more and he asked me who the demands were coming from mr humphries attorney an assurance of common sayings that i talked to mr wittman about that no mr colson came in talking about inequity been instructed not talking about it that is correct love also in preparation for a press conference was not the main reason for the meeting on the thirteenth the city that that meeting had to do about that tour and it was very likely that i was going to be called over here before the senate judiciary committee

and we had discussions about time of possibly litigating over dean i as a means of not having other members of the white house that have to appear before any other committee there's been a piece be i don't recall a population that is not been listening to shortly before a press conference these things would come up us deeper questions on the press conference he had a press conference on the fifteenth of my you have meetings were intimate

it's very possible the questions came up at the best jobs because he was following the great closely and whether the discussion that we were having were going to great pains was formulating answers in the president's mind after the press conference i don't know he hadn't at that point i began to study her least in my presence is briefing the press conference where recall any discussions in either one of those meetings about preparation for a press conference on he recalls discussion about what now so your question was what specific company says that i have a president on watergate than levels that way beyond that and i was asking did you discuss the press conference in march thirteenth and fourteenth meetings and your answer was that you couldn't recall and i'm asking that you can recall about watergate on those today can't recall any discussions about preparing the president is

saying is that that meeting was not to prepare the president the press conference there were discussions about the great hearings there was discussion about the on the question of litigating executive with the fact that the president gave a press conference on the fifteenth those days were generally flexible and certain circumstances might influence of leather vest or whether he would or would not have a press conference but you don't remember any discussion you are meetings that you remember and much prior to the twenty first of march where watergate was discussed again i'm going about the cover up the criminal activities senator again i'm i'm not trying to prove to include more in your question and i would wish to

include that there was a general theory that have been set up at a cost after her approach the entire watergate cover up situation so what might be your interpretation of the discussion of the watergate matter and what emerged out of the la costa meeting i find four different you know i went into that meeting i don't see those were the beginnings of the cover up of a related to the killings which were being to be as serious as a as a criminal investigation by the department of this year we've cut down on march fourteenth we only have seven days to go for the twenty first of my please tell me in these meetings you'll have the present between march fourteenth and march twenty three occasions the incidents that you discussed cover up of one thing and i think it

is what we're rather specific discussions of mechanics have to cover up from a great detail major were as opposed to the general policy of a cover up fourteen nineteen fifty eight on the fifteenth after the press conference i met with and yes the president at a press conference called it more in iowa workers offers and i can recall very vividly the and he was it was a historic announcement about the

officers and the announcement of the appointment of ambassador roos phil outpost out of the first question that the person that's pepper he had read this announcement was what had been a knot would appear before the senate judiciary committee and great earrings but from there the discussion became another rambling i was the president's recollections of his hanging in this case mr morris recollections of how the president had handled this case social conversation one sixty six think we discuss the matter is on howl mr sigler i should follow up on matters that had arisen in the press conference merkel out one of the things the president had tried to discuss what it will

run lots of march seventeenth and green and he was great then it stuck in my mind cannot predict the conversation was that he wanted the senate would bite debate that he had to put out at his press conference on that again over the question of dean and executive levy because it is convinced it's a good it never say the white house that were before the summer worldview is on the line just wanted i think that correct nearsightedness i said and we are just following his consistent theme that have been developed to occur you see

any way discussing the fact that he was very distressed the grain was turning over fbi files of the watergate what about march nineteen was a meeting within the huge just watergate on those me tonight we're going to hear looks like to know what happened then on another recall i don't know what record your reading from the white house lawn vice committee now what i would call as hiking the president's office and he wanted to discuss it was a discussion of the media the conversation

he was getting into now one of reason that they don't know what the news interrupted when i suggested that more come down and join the discussion and the president you cultivate more networking and meeting know what about my twenty year there were want to know for your phone calls on one meetings you're called bayer well i guess i do on the twentieth well the preceding the preceding that evening on march nineteenth we had discussed the matter of fact that a number of charges were being made related to my involvement in the watergate they were coming out of the senate confirmation hearings <unk>

gray and we discuss whether i was very anxious to toussaint written an article is as we had author of the committee at that time those discussions are about the freedom to follow that there are what happened as i recall senator obama had been on nationwide television preceding sunday on meet the surveys the nation an amazing statement about sending down the recipe for the white house dan there've also been questions that have been raised regarding another reason that wouldn't be sufficient because you couldn't cross examiner written in a laudatory i think everybody at the white house agree that you can't cross examine a revelatory was very persuasive effect on humans everybody good

israel we discuss as well now as they have another in those meetings to get a ladder up fourteen could explain some of those ms rose thanks would you have an incentive for the committee and on the twentieth of course i got a call that evening from the president and we were talking for about some of things we talked about during the day and i was at the tail end of the conversation and i said to the president i would like to meet with you the next day two

implications you ran down to the actual discussions direct discussions with the president say this that just that i know that every time i entered the office i appreciate the enormity of the united states at no time did i feel i withheld anything from the president and i think that any man who went in there and there's a question by the president there's an artist is when i'm saying something about the president i realize the enormity of that also and i wouldn't likely or in any

way that intentionally say anything that i did not know to be the facts as i know them in my mind well then in summary let me simply state my understanding of that what we found out here i understand it your own testimony that you did not like the president have anything to do with planning of the watergate break in our the right is the fact that it is also true is drawing of my understanding that during the rest of the year nineteen seventy two between june they're sixty seventy something like an excerpt from meeting on september fifteenth they even you have not testify to any discussions with the president was warmly at a community center

how that is correct and of course it's understandable hear that you and i have different interpretations of that your interpretation as the president said to you you're welcome i simply say that interpretation can be assessed to that that he was talking about the investigation you're doing connection with the fbi attention to the other place the conversation when i told him that i didn't think that this thing could go on indefinitely and at some point likely unravel show to show you a different opinion on that the question has

been your testimony is that on over the twenty eight you didn't discuss this matter of obstruction of justice and i knew also testified that to what you did here on march thirteenth and of course we come to the meeting on march twenty thirteen when you and somewhere i can see from the testimony and the president certainly didn't know anything about all this is this is this one senator until there are twenty eight recording artist martin in march thirteenth were especially of course the media march twenty first work you did discuss the watergate and he joined a press conference to say that he learned about a vulnerability thank you for your patience and was the chairman especially thank you for your patience in the interest of the mamas and so

i think the senators it's been political reasons the senators are spending almost as much time voting today as they are questioning as the vendors and the committee are still sorting out the memo for

more but then the second batch like this again if i can any indication that's right the definition of a city that was obscure and i think this is a baby use them for the committee's work the important to them and to the best of your recollections of details what each lesson is hutu about and who receives the best available and working

nineteen eighty nine seventeen and a source of news mr jd i guess it was when you speak of the list of the contributors who has identified as such it's the furthest was referring to

is a reference on the government gave me the attack should be of interest to you and the political enemies and attached to it as a partial list of fat cats and in a must be honored yes it was the action here imagine a decision to me that is a memorandum from not clear to all the rage but chet huntley

i think that when a patient on that and which are mine i have as a list from the mcgovern campaign staff this list was prepared by mr murray carpenter and certainly mr trotter isn't that over in his latest project november fifth nineteen seventy one and it notes that youre anonymous and this morning's

news summary that jail and no vote would still giving money to the democrat john lindsay early states he will support iran is also back or i cut fuel use this information as you see that any intimate and attaches them to some of that data the paintings by very nice and mr yes i am also an enemy

that's correct that was a part of that is i'm sure there was a cover memorandum of values in my file somewhere in between the white house this was related to the next argument it is the seventies you like it too and that is our question

a major there's another one was going to september fourteen nineteen seventy one he had requested michael reagan on the list and it's really suggesting is based on a conversation i had with other is regarding the lessons learned that lesson tony parsons as with most difficult to proceed with more this

time i would hope we can get additional names in the process every few months we must keep its budget within reasonable bounds whether any of these things please keep me keep the list at least at least twenty or less as a vest that was prepared based on a document that mr carlson had gone through and got some twenty games the preakness because both this was the eighties it

was to me is he at question mark on the notes have been on such a mausoleum and it went into a file in my office where i've just gotten the next thing that happened is a corporate executive the executive committee of the police nineteen seventy it is fb and this

document is a rising tide of democratic contributors of twenty five thousand dollars or more in a nineteen sixty eight campaigns on june twenty nineteen seventy one new york times story with certain names check on the mccain campaign calls its time there's a series of documents that relate to muskie competitors cut off on the top americans are under the process and those that it was more than the recalls of this also the next

government is against a blank sheet of paper on which is a briefing paper that i was requested repair damaged her home so that he could deal with the secretary of treasury with regard to making an internal revenue service politically responsive to the white house another stockman was preparing to the top so the attack was prepared by the coffee yield based on the conversations you had with individuals in the treasury department as well as service that is right the last time an identification from eminem

develop august sixteen nineteen seventy one it was a threat to my files and what i was asked to prepare a strategy for dealing with political enemies of all the entire white house staff and we sent forward to my recollection or cruel disapproval are common now about one of my file in the white house i can't pay the disposition of his documents isn't it i mean one question

three pages thank you morning steve it is it does

nobody was around that's nineteen seventy i can tell none of the parents' business by jury but you told about a first time you're laying the ordination i think and then into mentoring now they're more

animated and we get low at just german shoppers complain the most extreme cases as president of the united states because of the gravity of the strategies i believe that the witnesses john going to be subject to buy this committee the most intense interrogation a test of credibility it would appear to me that the most appropriate for the villagers would be one and as enormous german the white house has appointed a memorandum and so questions which is why this committee these questions

should serve as a substitute that are going up the varied as a substitute for cross examination of muscatine by the president of the united states accordingly i believe that it would be most appropriate use these questions and to use the memorandum on some of all of us here will agree that the president is entitled to his day or so with that in mind i was the proceeds i have here a letter dated june twenty seven nineteen seventy three from the white house was jesus' followers to summit in norway will not a public expression of a willingness to use question as a memorandum it is literally for the committee stop and questioning mr dean we have today for the more up the big questions of both the majority council and now because of all the committee all we're going to all go and closed and this material

we thought it would be appropriate to send these questions directly to you there's also impose there with a slightly revised that an updated version of the memorandum previously promised to the committees that says donate jerry for it was our special counsel to the president mr chairman i ask that the snow to make what's up the memo and the question's been his reforms that made all the right ones that's right mr <unk> proceed with

a memo which have received this morning from the white house and it was close as a lot of wreckage on the new law and dissipated in the planning that went into the break in at watergate well instead of his knowledge of that specific operational its approval the plan ultimately about have not yet been established there's no reason to doubt the john bain was the principal actor it was both