1973 Watergate Hearings; 1973-07-31; Part 4 of 7

it's b no no i just take the patients you are one of thirteen i use a three and i think he says the use of how this album was the day he says the aisle as in whole conversations they contain compounds that perspective and motivations with him and mezzo

i'm going to be right thank you you know and the business of way and it would be a great assistance that we had the original band information mm mm mm mm mm wow as the committee members take time for little cooling off and some lunch we're going to take a pause public television's coverage of the senate hearings we'll continue after a break for station identification unabridged coverage of these hearings is provided as a public service of the member stations of pbs

the public broadcasting service it's been terry and pike continues its coverage or hearings by the senate select committee

on presidential campaign activities here again correspondent robert might be you after lunch manana counsel fred thompson resumes his questioning about that march twenty first meeting with president nixon and john dee he's back mr needham right and you're right garry

marshall to forestall a lot that what extent that you're listening to that plate refresh your mom i would say that it confirm my memory on this episode you're interested recommendation it was set very

much as i describe what i heard on the tape leaders as having taken place in your party conversation the year you're the president or mr bean when i came in turn to that subject and said that there had been a threat by mr just right at that point in time that he was demanding hundred and twenty thousand dollars and that if he didn't get it he would reveal the seen the things he had done for them and then the president went through the one question might make it relate to communicate in long on the question of the conversation when i was there i think so whether it was then or what he said was and what he said to me later in the same regard was that it had been relate directly to

him johnny by mr bittman who was once counsel yes via the point was made that that this kind of thing if it were extended on integrated time we go to as much as a million dollars in answer to those who say well to answer to the voters this is going to have all its it's possible that point that the president set it say that the gentleman that could amount to as much as a curve there's no question that this

whole discussion of the government while so close was had been it was clear when it eliminated my knowledge know what happened before was clear when i came in and to me that they had already discussed listener and at that point that was being discussed and questions and so on the river as they had been discussed before the president was pursuing it for him in interrogating you mentioned is in london on the man if i may i prefer to live in the community as to be a restriction that had placed placed on it by the white house and in the effort to get all these materials reading we left

out that's right and in the end it was regarding the conversation after it even though the room and do you have some you know if it does what should've been in this event just natural after one of the worst we only have one i will read the entire thing because it's it's be done except for the portion that i should have been included in both there was a

time after a piecemeal do you think would be helpful and it's i think they have been most cases there because all is this only covers the portion of what the other one point that there was a car right that's right to the best of my recollection when i entered the meeting there was a discussion regarding the threat that he be given a hundred and twenty thousand dollars or else he would tell frank talk about things he had done for it was clear this had also been discussed earlier in the day the president asked the leading questions about what he would recommend how such a painting could be made and so there was a reference to a long term need for as

much as a million dollars didn't describe the process of transferring of delivering the fonz and this is when being said next time he'd be more knowledgeable which i laughed that's references why realized that this out in me and then i say that because in the conclusion i made the point on impressions that his statement that he would be more knowledgeable next time i'm laughing at that is also an event that he says took place in the march thirteenth me laid back when summer's first the yeah now by asking a number of questions about what

it would get some of this kind of mining which means it was hard to give them the president responded it wasn't hard to do to get the question that was what you do with it how do you deliver it with what's been done in the past with the water there processors involved in that kind of league west conversation with you again and this four years of believing that that was that was the first commander that he listened to me what makes you think that what the president is trying to broadly now what you mean the same girl i think he was asking that kind of question that was designed to try to find out to try to get the information for themselves as to what really was involved in all this and what we know you think about

this something to do with it he was trying to find out what the process was being described as well what you've done earlier but that you describe it as as one of the examples of the things that had been happening it was a thing the president was pursuing thank you listen to conservation before you're presently at this same time oh yes it more detail more than that more extensive you know why do they want to press cuba analyst juan the same conversation moves i'm going to live in the same dollar year residents of that are very honest conversation what was an

interview in a residence what i'm wondering is does this is exactly why the president would guess this question what was a really interested in one of the most in the race for this and all right i don't think he was the questions he was asking where work in the direction of america whether a million dollars could be raised but rather that direction what this process was to get this right i think he was trying to find out what was going on what you mean who exactly was fun to the blackmail exactly our plan carried out the article was doing and he was trying to find out how it was being carried out would be carried out at as being the lobby and desperation will be in place to learn about the reason

i'm not sure that he did i think he was asking him in a more he he was masking the specific sense he didn't couldn't say what are you doing this on sunday we asked what what were the kinds of questions i think the wind has as i have indicated in the earlier session he would he'd lean one way and even the other one other reason he would he would ask well you do this is as your recommendation is this what we need to do is this what are the guns is that water then he would go the other way and say that you can't do that as we can raise that kind of money but it would be wrong to know what i'm wondering and again this is your course you won't be on espn of this was his recommendation to him it's all money not

unless he was suspicious of the warming beans all involve what that they were possibly going to raise this money i i think he was at a point where yeah oh it's very difficult for me to characterize the balloons except that he was driving was clear that he's turning in for me agent now why i was trying to get the information is not clear to me there certainly was not going to be then i think that he had heard a number of things in that meeting and this was i think the most shocking thing to remember the woman that was of most concern to him was the one he was exploring you will and in a conversation with you did not we were not present

when us in the conversation president said something to the effect of the overall yes i don't recall any of those things very hard on something like this isn't sure you understand to do that say affirmatively that something was not done because i'm going on recollection of what i can what was intended asa which were discussed in your presence at state that they discuss pokemon suggestion that ever won one national trends are all people should go in a media the president this morning prior to be a human being which this suggestion has been raised by mr brockhouse suggestion race to who has a suggestion i believe the president then in saying that i will do with the total situation that

there now appears to be this these various rabin is a member of it that's not going to work and then the question he was he started exploring what what do you do with me trying to sell only angels we see what i write that's certainly boss wanting is trying to use say i react to it my reaction i think either that or a meeting later was that the way to get this thing uncover and i was to put on a white house statement that was my view and the thing about that time in the week should try to put the whole all the facts together put them into a definitive statement of those facts and released un that was my view as contrasted that i believe at that time during an interview that they're a way to get all this established a minute in a

proper form and recognizing i didn't understand the legal question the others which were my idea wasn't my soul into it with the idea i was espousing of the overall statement said what you're not a lawyer because you're alive and rendered it i know a lot more about renter's day that i knew that then and i i'm not i did not know and i think it again in this period our grand jury work that i suggested at one point were raised a question i don't get noticed that meeting or some other mean that the grand jury sounded like a good idea we could then release the grand jury testimony i didn't know that that he couldn't really is grand jury testimony and i thought maybe that was an approach that others made a letter to the grand jury and then released a record

amount of a grand jury can do that but i also know so now that the people who testified in danger again the situation it suggested there is reaction i finally react to me you may have to what was his historic moment subject was the general feeling then from what you know of conversations with you well it did come up in the afternoon the same day or so and no it came up at several times in the period of that week the un yesterday nice position on the grand jury idea was that it would be a good idea to have everybody go to the grand jury but with

immunity and that that was the best way to get out the truth is if everybody regretted getting out than he should've known as a lawyer i didn't know at that time that one of course immunity only by first looking for from them and that had i known that i would have strenuously object of that approach as john ehrlichman didn't get out on the grounds of the day as i recall the grounds that that it just that didn't make any sense that anyone asked him why a live interview was needed and why live video is in the white house would need an adventure i think that and this was discussed they told

me that he felt it was important and that is extended in his view that extended to survey to himself impossibly to be and possibly be too little more dispersed when president or you're right they're going to go through menopause or the part that you just read you stated intervention been said that he was aware that he was present at the president television he and i i recall one because its roots in the notes one specific thing where you were as they were discussing one of these items being the president was asking questions i

don't think the questions were quite making sense to be an essential <unk> president know that that i'm covering things with you hear that you know nothing about it was a clear and flat statement about that the juror discussed this conversation on running for president in a sense it's the same mild mannered he didn't deserve damages doesn't work for thank you that's it i'm not sure that the idea is

passivity conversation about this is going back from that point on march twenty first on the president became very much it involved in seeking information about some of these things and talking about the various people and you know you see a poster of them in fact gathering business and then on the thirtieth of march while we're in key biscayne over the weekend the twenty thirteen he raised a number of questions that came out of his sorting through what he had been told by jumping on the twenty first and at one particular time so that it's very clear that he made a point poems that all of the subjects all major

ports in the conversation yet because what the point that the president wanted it to be with me there was some discussion about that we mentioned the movie there's something there and that such a meeting was set up for the next morning the next day on the support of the final conversation between the cause the most pain when you're not imagine first of all that and i'm on within the dnc in that he got his information which is that yes he went through i believe some of the details craig an engineer and i think that testimony

so really right after the break that was a separate panel one element and so what they want is a concern in one of not about the break in a lot of that involved planning to rekindle egan he said that lady course he does this time he was he was not certain but his opinion was that bulger had been involved in the planning and the knowledge of the reagan and he indicated that he wasn't sure whether mr mitchell had known about it or

not you know martin wore the yellow flames that he felt that the huge amount of st martin's an indication he said that as far as a job at that time given the terminology was pre june seventeen and posted city and it's huge he devoted his reporting the region seventy three june seventeen he said the middle of the lawn of the white house of all that is oh well you describe his meetings with the attorney general and libyan man recruiter at which they're an intelligent plan is discussed i don't believe that he indicated that i'm virtually certain it any

and again he thought that these meetings have specifically related to the break in at the democratic national committee that had been general plans for general of those programs but with filling and consume oil kinds of activities that waiting till the president to be a reporter to me on those meetings and as the after the second of those meetings and that he still had recommended to me that are just be turned off and not involved at all in such thing as a minimum that's just for me which i don't recall specifically regarding is his assertion that meeting to me a point sometime in the us and to get in any i believe said that that is concerned

as far as the white house was concerned as far as white house was involved and prima june seventeenth there was into possible is one that there had been a phone call from colson to mcgregor which could have been considered or could be construed as pressure by paul simon who dared to go ahead with this project i don't think any real specifics and the other point was that the question well have seen the segal i think the fruits of the lobbying activity because it was his understanding that the fruits have an incentive to start what will but i don't really identify that basis i don't recall i think he simply said that video so on to the web he was getting his information we get isn't mission to boston so

i think that there is part of this is you don't even remember idiots and charities drawn about his recent incident or no the only regret i have is for straws concern is the key consistently city on regions of the game was those two points or basically at its heart regent seventeen june seventeen he said that there were also two areas of concern that one was one and see any other words that was money in an atlanta syria where you know there was

a potential problem was in the fact that as he put it at that time as best i can recall pull some had a talk with an organ about clemency and then a conversation i don't think you went any further than that i don't think he asserted that their identity any offer any events or simply that there had been a conversation your imaginative time either in your presence around her presence you heard from the tape about carlson's offering hot executive clemency or through someone else was really a message that he expects well there was a sense that on march twenty thirteen the day before his house and even having

read than a quarter of them have read of the human toll of the reading of the court a letter and the allegations that were contained in that ad raised raise the point with me that here we were with new ongoing developments on the lawn of the watergate the white house is still not moving ahead to get this thing where it up and you picked up facts from being any of their information from being that he was concerned and he specifically asked me to and i asked him about this question whether he or any conversations that's it yes anything that i'm talking

about in terms of that march twenty first meeting in the morning it is of necessity us different than anything any decision after that was it wasn't i don't recall any conversation after that in the march twenty first meeting of that sort of that man sorry i didn't understand that to be your question we're about doing things may serve as a mission determined that when the first meeting as vivian oh let's just say it the report was one of those two concerns was the reason for his concern was it was his understanding that paulson had talked with

one or with that than about policy discussion and learn with all the long desert which was which was cited as an example a video of the problem of money he also that was the most recent example he did describe to the president some background as a sense of money for independence that day other than never in fact money and then had been obtained had been provided to the defendants and i'm virtually certain to be said that this is really in other words you know the way i do not recall in that meeting you there when i was there or at any time prior to when i came

in but what i heard on the tape any reference to money being supplied for defendants odds the bills i think was only a passing reference as so he was talking about other possible areas of concern is principal areas of concern was june seventeen workers have more money and fancy free june seventeen were were different then he said there are other possible related problems that may come out and among them are i'm not trying to say that because i think some of these came up that these were presented as a list of other problems that came up in him in relation to other things he was

talking about in the course of the conversation referred to the als er doctor rate which is the first time i've heard any reference to that when he talked about this later it was the first time i remember i may not a concert before them for it to take because i think it was discussed during training camp david agreement something of something at the brookings institution the security matter hamas general money raising and then expenditures job would you that's right the calls an investigation a chapel service to the president did that it was clear what they're all no i

don't believe it i think they were so that these were not i don't recall any of these big on into any detail they were raised as another potent of all i'm steve inskeep i'm waiting to see you you know good question or the combination of the law that my accuracy and tempting to

describe the contents of those tapes is that subject to verification for possible verification and nine with not making any great analogy thank you john raise the question of possible vulnerability with me during our series of phone conversations were using camp david and i was a key biscayne washington generally in terms not legal vulnerability and he generally spoke about that

way it would come up as he was describing what he was finding and what the problems were said there's there's a possibility of a problem for you here and the question of the other three hundred and fifty thousand dollars and that that would arise if it were determined rebel alliance with this money were used for defendants silencer or something of that sort and won every race that point he did several times we know that my understanding that that was not the purpose is an innovation place conversations with them to be a reason you might make you will raise up he in the end of march her again he he did at times raised the point that another possible vulnerability and my heart would be my having ok come on raising funds but at other times he decided that only has as jonathan's one of only in other

words that you'd only check of john oliver yet that didn't always come through the same way and sometimes it was the future of john ehrlichman and me before us come out and raise money and other times he said lester discusses marlon less damage and your possible the last time i mention my boss about the mission impossible three was a conversation anew zone knew until march twenty thirteen as twenty thirteen back twenty eight now i'm sure that that because we have a continuing discussions on through the period up to a pro us open in april so i would guess that that this question would have arisen during the course of those discussions in china

yesterday outgoing wanted you forced an indication that you've gone state us get in other ways i guess from the newspaper stories that there were reporting what he was supposedly going to jos committee or you know it was a tiny wiggling his attorneys are so few years in terms of what i was during the period during the week of april eighth april first time we were in san clemente and he was in washington he told me that his attorneys had met with the us attorney is an informal sessions to such sessions in that during

that we enable and he told me what the nature of the general nature least of their discussions and then and then he told me as i said in my state that the us attorneys had told his attorneys that they were not concerned with any post june seventeen questions and they were only concerned with the pre june seventeen problems and in that area they were not seeking diaz a principle powers of the target is but that were seeking him as a witness and that they have indicated to him that they probably would not be seeking me as a witness that's better yes yes so

difficult to me susan and at that time there was no i didn't know why would feel compelled to scapegoat for it would be a mistake it would be escapism and in addition the beautiful exit polls tomorrow we'll know we begin to get those allegations he would make against the decay heat i was talking with me on a very cooperative basis as to what he considered to be potential problems and in the nature at that time that we were talking about the living and nurses rather than the legal crops but he did say that this could even get to the point of being a legal problem if it evolved into a circumstantial chain and i think he put a circumstantial chain of evidence leading to this on as one more

question june twenty eight the yo follow when my song oregon in recent years they seize these of all as i understand have been documented as those specific events and this is not an attempt to make a complete list at mit says such as that there were a number of others

what i would've loved one and you're my lawyers may be taken out but the tender mercies of the television audience but always i have been told our part documented incidents that took place are incidents persily observes well the violent demonstrations and disruption i have substantial knowledge of because there was a fairly extensive program of a violent demonstration the destruction during president nixon's campaign got a number of campaign stops that one of the more notable examples is in san francisco luncheon parents of our storytelling believe it was that you were the

violence in an activity was such that that the entire walk in which thousands of situation was court police are not a police state complete seizure of men with guns and i believe that and that's not a policeman and pouring gas passes has quite a seeing eye been widely reported as a movie fan and i took some movies that because it was it was sort of remarkable situation during that time there was a considerable distance property damage by demonstrators breaking windows that sort of thing in the general area of the hotel and nine i believe that was the time at one of them stabbed a policeman the other night there was

speakers and specifically the united states virtually every campaign well during the campaign there was always a way in organizing group of demonstrators with very unpleasant science that would try to shut down the president as he spoke to prime example about the sort of the tragedy was one that took place on the grounds of the statue of liberty this was not a campaign appearance of as a dedication of an immigration museum on that island where this that hillary is located and there were demonstrators that situation themselves obviously for the benefit of television right in front of the president between the president and the television cameras and then they attempted to shout him down and did so quite effectively is ever so close to the microphones at the same microphones he was speaking into are picking up their their shops and you might remember the newscast

about that event because a president one of the rare times that he did so directly referred to the demonstrators and made the point that he hoped that the television cameras would include the thousands of people that have gathered there for the ceremony who were there for a constructive purpose instead of just focusing on a small group of people are trying to disrupt the opening and bombing campaign headquarters i have no personal knowledge of him that i've never been in one that was burned or bomb but there have been a number of news reports in and i think the official investigations of those and i don't think there's any nixon headquarters one of them in arizona believe in phoenix was burned down in one in fairfax avenue is was blown up by was not in fact i think that's one where the one of the people who bought the bombing was killed in the explosion

physical damage traction at headquarters and other buildings or it's a considerable amount of the harassment candidate's wives and families but senate is mrs nixon and tricia julie were subjected to such a restaurant and very crude form and a number of their public appearances as you know they travel independent campaigning on behalf of the president's reelection incidents have been i understand that together and the documentary form and this question i referred to some of these things at the time i met with the un committee staff the first time and i was asked that time by the staff to provide more information than they're the general comments that i had to make and i indicated i would do so i requested that this be done and i assume that it hasn't the committee i trust spouses receive

some documentation mr moses international conventions and justified people aware of the republican convention and remember the problem with a thousand delegates heading getting to the convention hall because of the slightly less tires threats of violence to relatives the trash fires and that these were mostly cover most of their intelligence i don't think there are events that are are unfamiliar to the american people so far there's been no investigation of his activism rule publicizing you do you are in for support the army members

do i'm happy to hear that an american welcome being corrected but you also make for solving some investors took place with a clear knowledge and consent of engines of the last election i understand there's some in the documentation that the one specific that comes immediately to mind and that is is the occasion of the area trip to los angeles to the century plaza hotel which there was a very large demonstration staged on the hand bills too notify people of this demonstration is planned demonstration where at what time and that sort of thing were handed out by william mcgovern headquarters and i understand the reform there was a phone call

so in order for this generation thank you newspaper reporters and he needs to do the teenager thank you take the september eighteenth meeting

in this video an end and at the latter president has an interview to the yellow leaves your interpretation of the cajun meal president authorized me to testify as to my recollection of meetings in which i was present and it did you give your consent to take annual question those are not epa he specifically authorized me to give my recollection obviously we knew

and it will be ok it does that's right i'm asking you

to i don't know how they i represented my attorneys my concern that in preparing my statement i was obviously of necessity dealing with matters that covered that's the knowledge of which i had as a result of listening to the tapes and i asked my attorneys to ascertain for me what requirements i would be under in terms of the separation of powers restrictions as to my testimony in that regard that do have references to you know in some of these things at the time i raised the question i did not have them in my statement is journalist trying to determine what to put in my statement on the other and whatnot due mainly to a communication now

you know specific i know i have discussed with her when i was twenty in my state and i discussed with them the online part that this was an area in which i would have to testify quite possibly sir we do my understanding is that the medicaid

problem well it does i mean as you know this is and i think those are all the civil rights that was the one instead they wouldn't let us to disclose these days without and surprise yesterday the white house statement like this my dad did not know the contents of the state

money he's back and in races you're right you know sir i think that that it's quite clear that because the white house had made that statement the president made that statement i was faced with the question as to what i was to do with knowledge that i had when i appear year with a requirement and the desire to transcend all the knowledge that i have as best i can and i do faced with that dilemma asked my

attorneys how to deal with that in the end the terms of what i was permitted to testify today and what i was restricted from testifying to and in that regard the white house's response as i understand it and as this i can't give you a legal analysis of a bit from a layman's viewpoint it would appear to me that the white house's response to my question as to what what i'm supposed to do was that they obviously could not restrict me from testifying as to acknowledge i had as a result of my having been in attendance at a meeting but they didn't place upon me the restrictions that i was not testifying to information which it and selling from the process of listening to the tape you know use your interrogations that those are right most of them and that was not the point i want to really remember why

you're as mr wilson because i raise it was a hit fb fb