Interview With President Oliver Tambo and Senator Richard Lugar (1985)

[Astronaut] Standing by, down to 65%. Pass through max queue. [Musical sting] [Lehrer] There is always news from South Africa these days, and it is usually about violence and death. Today, it was violence in fifteen black townships and death to six blacks, including a policeman who was attacked, strangled, and then set afire by a mob of other blacks. Today, the Minister of Law and Order gave a grim tally to the South African Parliament. Since last September, when anti-apartheid protests escalated, 217 blacks and fifteen whites have died, 736 blacks have been injured, and 10,000 have been arrested. There was even a new statistic added over the weekend: 14,500 black gold miners were fired from their jobs for participating in an illegal strike. Authorities fear this action could lead to even further violence.

The news from South Africa has been accompanied by news about it here in the United States, mostly concerning anti-apartheid protests and calls for the U.S. government as well as U.S. business and industry to increase pressure on the minority white South African government to change its policies toward the black majority population. It is the subject of our lead focus segment tonight and brings together two men who debated this same issue right here four years ago. Oliver Tambo, president of the outlawed African National Congress, the largest organization for black independence in South Africa, and Senator Richard Lugar, Republican of Indiana, now Chairman of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee. Mr. Tambo, in New York to you first, the Minister of Law and Order also said today that your organization is working at making South Africa ungovernable and uncontrollable. Is that true? [Tambo] It is true. We are the victims of a crime. The government is carrying on a crime, perpetrating a crime on our people. We have an obligation to stop the crime, to stop the operation of

the apartheid system by making it unworkable. We have no alternative to that. For decades now, we have been confronted with this problem. It has been identified internationally as a crime against humanity, and it is a crime felt daily by our people. And we are obliged, we are duty bound, to do whatever we can to free ourselves of this crime. [Lehrer] Senator Lugar, do you agree that Mr. Tambo and his organization and the others who feel the same way in South Africa have no alternative other than to make the country uncontrollable? [Lugar] I would hope that they have other alternatives. I appreciate the poignancy of what he is saying.

And clearly, the South African government is not handling the situation well. Friends of that government have suggested kindly that they will really need to move in the next few weeks and months for power-sharing in South Africa. And that will be very difficult for them to do politically. But other than that, it appears to me that the kinds of events are likely to increase in scope and South Africa will become more and more ungovernable. [Lehrer] So you think, is the U.S. government saying that, what you just said, to the leaders of South Africa? [Lugar] I would hope so privately. I would think that it is obvious on the face of it that the degree of difficulty for South Africa is substantial. And that the debate that people are indulging in in this country about disinvestment or about a sanction here or there is almost beside the point. People are making decisions with regard to investment in South Africa, with regard to loans and what have you, which have been increasingly adverse to that country. [Lehrer] How do you feel about that, Mr. Tambo, about what the United States is doing or should

do in the investment area or any other area? [Tambo] Well first of all, we have reached this situation of consistent and mounting death exactly because we have done very little so far, all of us together, to stop that system. What we have asked the United Nations to do and what we have asked the United States to do is to put pressure on the South African regime in forms which would be effective. [Lehrer] Like what? [Tambo] For example, disinvestment, sanctions. These have not been applied and it is significant that the situation has worsened. It is worse this year than at any time in the past both in terms of the level of conflict and in terms of the sheer numbers of people who are being killed. [Lehrer] Senator Lugar, you do not think those techniques will work, is that right?

[Lugar] I think they would be ineffective, all of the legislation I have introduced suggests that after a two-year period of time, and Bishop Desmond Tutu suggested two years ought to be a fair trial before disinvestment was tried, that we ought to try some positive things. Our government ought to become involved with blacks in South Africa with scholarship assistance, training of teachers, with humanitarian aid, with ways in which this country exemplifies its idealism in a hands-on operation, as opposed to one in which we separate ourselves, hobble American business, which is perhaps the most progressive thing occurring in South Africa. I would be in favor of trying to get American business more involved in offering incentives to business to do so because I think that is the only effective way that America really will have much to say about the evolution of things in South Africa. [Lehrer] What do you think of that, Mr. Tambo?